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Old 03-21-2011, 06:18 PM
Ranjan Maitra
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 14:04:36 -0500 Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 1:16 PM, stan <gryt2@q.com> wrote:
> >
> > Just thought I would make an observation about the direction of Fedora
> > after reading some of the comments in the OT morons thread, that has
> > morphed into grumbling about Gnome 3.
> >
> > I was looking at the list archives
> > http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/
> > for another reason and I noticed a trend that might be relevant. Five
> > years ago the gzipped text for a month of list traffic ran in the 4 to
> > 5 MB range. Today it runs less than a MB.
> >
> > Now, there can be many reasons for that:
> > - the traffic has been split to more specific lists
> > - people are using other means to get help, such as forums and chat
> > - Fedora has become so easy to use there aren't as many issues raised
> > - people are voting with their feet and deserting Fedora
> >
> > If it is the last reason, that is troubling for the future. And it
> > begs the question of *why* people might be deserting Fedora. Is it
> > related to the sort of grumbling and dissatisfaction seen on the OT
> > morons thread? I know there is some truth for me in that. It
> > seems that the people doing the work want it to be trendy, in some
> > cases just for trendiness' sake, while I care more about stability and
> > functionality. That can also be viewed as making Fedora cutting
> > edge, and it is hard to argue with that. Perhaps Fedora is shifting
> > away from the sweet spot of my use, and I'll eventually have to look
> > elsewhere. From another perspective, I suppose it means I'm not
> > keeping up with Fedora. I can view that as an opportunity to change, I
> > guess.
>
> I don't think that you can blame GNOME 3 for that drop off; not yet
> anyway. Ubuntu's had pretty much the same interface up to now.
>
> Come F15, I'll be giving up on GNOME (not because I don't like it; I,
> in fact, like the new look, etc but because I want to vote against the
> developers' tone deafness) and giving XFCE and LXDE a try - on Fedora.
>
> I think that we can blame Ubuntu/Mint for the drop-off (to what
> extent, I have no idea). And apart from its good PR and cutesy name,
> I'd put it down to the fact that it's easier to install proprietary
> drivers and other non-free stuff.
> --

I have never used Gnome or that other resource-hog (KDE). I used to use
fvwm for a long time, and then when it got painful, switched to XFCE
from Fedora 8 on. I had misgivings then, but the XFCE folks were
extremely helpful in my teething problems and it was really a breeze.
>From Fedora 12 on, I have been on LXDE. LXDE does seem to have an
unclear development process with no mailing list, but I intend sticking
to it for now. Christoph Wickert has been very helpful here, unless
something more resource-friendly comes out. I doubt that though.

I agree with your view that Ubuntu has good PR and easy-to-install
proprietary drivers and other non-free stuff, but I am not sure it is
that great anymore. Many of their releases languish without updates for
far longer than Fedora, in my experience. Ubuntu is designed to make
the switch from Windoze to be as painless as possible, and they
probably achieve that.

Speaking of which, I am not exactly comfortable with why Fedora (or
Ubuntu) allow any user to install updates using PackageKit without any
root access (or sudo password). I feel that this is not really right
from a security point of view....

Best wishes,
Ranjan
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Old 03-21-2011, 06:42 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On 03/21/2011 12:18 PM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
> Many of their releases languish without updates for
> far longer than Fedora, in my experience. Ubuntu is designed to make
> the switch from Windoze to be as painless as possible, and they
> probably achieve that.

AOL. My sister uses the latest Ubuntu and only reboots for kernel
updates or distro upgrades. Her current uptime is about 110 days. I've
always referred to it as the distro for Windows refugees and consider it
to be "Linux with training wheels." Not that that's a bad thing, mind
you, it's just the way things are.

What really amuses me is all the leet Slashtards who think they're so
wonderful because they use Ubuntu and post as though Linux == Ubuntu.
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:27 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On 03/21/2011 05:16 PM, les wrote:
> I find it rather amusing that you choose a fictional character to quote
> in support of a barb, rather than the author who truly owns the words.
> But to each his own. Rex Stout might be pleased or offended, depending
> on how he identifies with his character.

I attribute it to the character because it fits his personality so well.
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:39 AM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On 03/21/2011 09:33 AM, Unknown wrote:
> I havent deserted Fedora

Neither have I, and I don't intend to. I may, however stop using Gnome.
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:58 AM
Ranjan Maitra
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:41:55 -0500 suvayu ali
<fatkasuvayu+linux@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Speaking of which, I am not exactly comfortable with why Fedora (or
> >> Ubuntu) allow any user to install updates using PackageKit without any
> >> root access (or sudo password). I feel that this is not really right
> >> from a security point of view....
> >
> > I don't think that Ubuntu's ever had this issue and I'm pretty sure (I
> > hope!) that only F12 had it, very briefly.
>
> Isn't that how Packagekit behaves for updates? It only asks for the
> root password when some new package is installed because of
> dependencies. At least that is my experience in F13 and F14.
>

That was exactly my point. When the icon appears, one can click and say
update packages (or something like that). No password is ever asked for.
This approach to security (or lack thereof) makes me squeamish.

Perhaps this is not a problem for U, but definitely for F.

Best wishes,
Ranjan
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Old 03-22-2011, 10:26 AM
Andrew Haley
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On 22/03/11 10:55, Alan Cox wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 10:19:24 +0000
> Andrew Haley <aph@redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> On 22/03/11 09:54, Colin Paul Adams wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew Haley <aph@redhat.com> writes:
>>>
>>> Andrew> On 21/03/11 21:19, Vaclav Mocek wrote:
>>> >>
>>> Andrew> Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary really should warn
>>> Andrew> learners that the first usage, although common, is
>>> Andrew> technically incorrect.
>>>
>>> There's no such thing as technical correctness when it comes to
>>> (human) languages.
>>
>> Even if I were to agree with that rather extreme non-prescriptivist
>> opinion, the Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary should still warn
>> learners about "begging the question". Whether the first usage is
>> *actually* incorrect is irrelevant as long as some people believe that
>> it is.
>
> You can find someone on the internet who will believe anything is
> incorrect.

Sure, but that's rather beside the point. We're not talking about the
opinion of J.Random Nutter here, but about something that Fowler's
Modern English Usage, also published by Oxford, warns about.

> Oxford by the way take bug reports, so you can write them a
> letter giving examples of the problematic usage and suggesting changes -
> but IMHO you have to balance excessive detail against usefulness in
> any learning process.

Indeed so, but the problem arose here because someone, quite
reasonably, tried to use the Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary as an
authority. It's clearly not fit too be used as one. I think that's
wrong: advanced learners deserve to be treated with a little more
respect. Even if you believe that anything goes, it's unfair not to
tell an advanced learner that there is a controversy.

Andrew.
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Old 03-22-2011, 12:10 PM
Ranjan Maitra
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 06:04:58 -0500 suvayu ali
<fatkasuvayu+linux@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 2:38 AM, Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Check your install with "pkaction --verbose --action-id
> > org.freedesktop.packagekit.package-install".
> >
> > On F12 at launch, you got:
> >
> > implicit any: no
> > implicit inactive: no
> > implicit active: yes
> >
> > so anyone logged in at the console could install a package without
> > providing a password.
> >
> > On F12 after launch (and complaints), you got:
> >
> > implicit any: no
> > implicit inactive: no
> > implicit active: auth_admin or auth_admin_keep (I'm not sure which)
> >
> > so a password had to be entered to install (with "_keep" there's a
> > delay whereby a password doesn't have to be entered for a some set
> > period of time - just like sudo behaves).
> >
> > On F15, you get:
> >
> > implicit any: no
> > implicit inactive: no
> > implicit active: auth_admin_keep
>
> Yes this is what I get for both my F13 and F14 systems. I guess that
> explains the periodic password prompts Thanks a lot for the
> information. Much appreciated.
>

Interesting! I never get any password prompts, but I also use yum as a
result (only).

Ranjan
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Old 03-22-2011, 12:40 PM
Andrew Haley
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On 03/22/2011 11:35 AM, Alan Cox wrote:
>>> You can find someone on the internet who will believe anything is
>>> incorrect.
>>
>> Sure, but that's rather beside the point. We're not talking about the
>> opinion of J.Random Nutter here, but about something that Fowler's
>> Modern English Usage, also published by Oxford, warns about.
>
> And.. there are a considerable number of people who consider that
> Fowler's is J Random Nutter (notably everyone from Cambridge who don't
> even agree with Oxford spelling rules)

I think you're being unfair to Fowler: these days it mostly describes
English as it is used, noting disagreements where they arise. It
certainly doesn't take a strong pro-Oxford stance.

>>> Oxford by the way take bug reports, so you can write them a
>>> letter giving examples of the problematic usage and suggesting changes -
>>> but IMHO you have to balance excessive detail against usefulness in
>>> any learning process.
>>
>> Indeed so, but the problem arose here because someone, quite
>> reasonably, tried to use the Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary as an
>> authority. It's clearly not fit too be used as one. I think that's
>
> It's not an authority, there is no authority except the person who wrote
> the words, hence Humpty.
>
>> wrong: advanced learners deserve to be treated with a little more
>> respect. Even if you believe that anything goes, it's unfair not to
>> tell an advanced learner that there is a controversy.
>
> We could all go one better. As it was obvious what they meant so you could
> simply have assumed that meaning.

But I did simply assume that meaning; I am not the poster who
complained. I am not taking any position WRT "beg the question". I
am taking a position WRT bad dictionaries.

> Who *cares* about the finer points of US v Indian v UK English
> providing people are understood ?

That's a perfectly reasonable position to take, but it's one that
you've taken based on what you know. There is a difference between
saying to a pupil "X doesn't really matter" and not telling them about
X at all. I think advanced learners have a right to make up their own
mind, rather than have someone else decide that they should remain
ignorant.

IMO all this is rather like Postel's robustness principle: "be
conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from
others."

> Should I go around correcting every time some American writes "If I
> was" or other horrors ?

No, certainly not. See Postel's principle.

Andrew.
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Old 03-22-2011, 01:21 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On 03/22/2011 03:55 AM, Alan Cox wrote:
> Anyway Humpty Dumpty had it right:

If you really believe that, there's not only no point in discussing this
with you, there's no way we can have a meaningful discussion of anything
because there's no way for anybody to know what you think your words
mean at any given time. Without fixed, agreed upon definitions there is
no communication.
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