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Old 03-21-2011, 06:04 PM
Tom H
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 1:16 PM, stan <gryt2@q.com> wrote:
>
> Just thought I would make an observation about the direction of Fedora
> after reading some of the comments in the OT morons thread, that has
> morphed into grumbling about Gnome 3.
>
> I was looking at the list archives
> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/
> for another reason and I noticed a trend that might be relevant. Five
> years ago the gzipped text for a month of list traffic ran in the 4 to
> 5 MB range. Today it runs less than a MB.
>
> Now, there can be many reasons for that:
> - the traffic has been split to more specific lists
> - people are using other means to get help, such as forums and chat
> - Fedora has become so easy to use there aren't as many issues raised
> - people are voting with their feet and deserting Fedora
>
> If it is the last reason, that is troubling for the future. And it
> begs the question of *why* people might be deserting Fedora. Is it
> related to the sort of grumbling and dissatisfaction seen on the OT
> morons thread? I know there is some truth for me in that. It
> seems that the people doing the work want it to be trendy, in some
> cases just for trendiness' sake, while I care more about stability and
> functionality. That can also be viewed as making Fedora cutting
> edge, and it is hard to argue with that. Perhaps Fedora is shifting
> away from the sweet spot of my use, and I'll eventually have to look
> elsewhere. From another perspective, I suppose it means I'm not
> keeping up with Fedora. I can view that as an opportunity to change, I
> guess.

I don't think that you can blame GNOME 3 for that drop off; not yet
anyway. Ubuntu's had pretty much the same interface up to now.

Come F15, I'll be giving up on GNOME (not because I don't like it; I,
in fact, like the new look, etc but because I want to vote against the
developers' tone deafness) and giving XFCE and LXDE a try - on Fedora.

I think that we can blame Ubuntu/Mint for the drop-off (to what
extent, I have no idea). And apart from its good PR and cutesy name,
I'd put it down to the fact that it's easier to install proprietary
drivers and other non-free stuff.
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Old 03-21-2011, 06:47 PM
Tom H
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Ranjan Maitra <maitra@iastate.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 14:04:36 -0500 Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 1:16 PM, stan <gryt2@q.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Now, there can be many reasons for that:
>>> - the traffic has been split to more specific lists
>>> - people are using other means to get help, such as forums and chat
>>> - Fedora has become so easy to use there aren't as many issues raised
>>> - people are voting with their feet and deserting Fedora
>>
>> I don't think that you can blame GNOME 3 for that drop off; not yet
>> anyway. Ubuntu's had pretty much the same interface up to now.
>>
>> Come F15, I'll be giving up on GNOME (not because I don't like it; I,
>> in fact, like the new look, etc but because I want to vote against the
>> developers' tone deafness) and giving XFCE and LXDE a try - on Fedora.
>>
>> I think that we can blame Ubuntu/Mint for the drop-off (to what
>> extent, I have no idea). And apart from its good PR and cutesy name,
>> I'd put it down to the fact that it's easier to install proprietary
>> drivers and other non-free stuff.
>
> I agree with your view that Ubuntu has good PR and easy-to-install
> proprietary drivers and other non-free stuff, but I am not sure it is
> that great anymore. Many of their releases languish without updates for
> far longer than Fedora, in my experience. Ubuntu is designed to make
> the switch from Windoze to be as painless as possible, and they
> probably achieve that.

I'm pretty sure that if you checked equivalent releases, Fedora
*might* have vers x.(y+1) where Ubuntu has vers x.y but the overall
experience would basically be the same.


> Speaking of which, I am not exactly comfortable with why Fedora (or
> Ubuntu) allow any user to install updates using PackageKit without any
> root access (or sudo password). I feel that this is not really right
> from a security point of view....

I don't think that Ubuntu's ever had this issue and I'm pretty sure (I
hope!) that only F12 had it, very briefly.
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Old 03-21-2011, 08:19 PM
Vaclav Mocek
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On 03/21/2011 06:19 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 03/21/2011 10:16 AM, stan wrote:
>> And it
>> begs the question of*why* people might be deserting Fedora.
> No it doesn't; it *ASKS* the question. "Begging the question" is a
> logical fallacy. Please stop using that term like an illiterate moron,
> even if it is common usage. Just because the common herd uses it
> doesn't make it right and to those of us who know what it means it makes
> you sound like an ID10T.

From my Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary (2008):

Idiom "beg the question"

1. to make somebody want to ask a question that has not yet been answered
"All of which begs the question as to who will fund the project."

2. to talk about something as if it were definitely true, even though it
might not be
"These assumptions beg the question that children learn languages
more easily than adults."


I am confused; it is an idiom, which is a part of Standard [British]
English and the previous usage seems to be correct.

Vaclav M.
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Old 03-21-2011, 08:25 PM
Richard Shaw
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Joe Zeff <joe@zeff.us> wrote:
> On 03/21/2011 12:36 PM, stan wrote:
>> That is one interpretation of "beg the question". *However, when I
>> use a phrase, it means exactly what I want it to mean, no more and no
>> less.
>
> Thank you Mr. Humpty Dumpty. *You do understand, don't you, that that
> attitude makes communication impossible because there's no way for
> anybody to know what you mean by what you say.
>
> The term "begging the question" is a translation of the Latin
> term,petitio principii, which more accurately would translate as,
> "assuming your conclusion." *That is, you start out by assuming that A
> is true then use that to prove something that is logically equivalent to
> the statement "A is true." *The term, I'll grant, is a bad choice
> because it's not at all clear what it means and I personally prefer to
> use "circular reasoning" for such things.

Do you realize that when you treat someone the way you did that no one
cares if your right?

Richard
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Old 03-21-2011, 08:45 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On 03/21/2011 02:25 PM, Richard Shaw wrote:
> Do you realize that when you treat someone the way you did that no one
> cares if your right?

My right what? Don't you mean "you're right?" If so, you prove my
point. Thank you.
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Old 03-21-2011, 09:38 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On 03/21/2011 03:04 PM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> It's just that Joe Zeff apparently has a bad day today. ;-) Or maybe he has
> something personal against Stan and uses a public list to pass on a couple of
> personal insults.

Or, maybe, just maybe, I have a personal dislike for that particular
barbarism, just as Mr. Wolfe once stated, "Contact is not a verb under
*this* roof."
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:16 PM
Sam Sharpe
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

> On 03/21/2011 10:16 AM, stan wrote:
>> begs the question of*why* *people might be deserting Fedora.
> No it doesn't; it *ASKS* the question.

I'd like to step in here, as a heavy user of en_GB and say that the
original form is correct *and* in common usage. I accept that it may
not have made it into en_US yet (after 100 years or so, such a short
time) and while some people would argue that as en_US has evolved less
since 1776 it is closer to the original form, I'd like to counter with
"It's *our* Language and we'll change it if we want to" - *We* in this
case being the subjects of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, by the
Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions
beyond the Seas Queen, Defender of the Faith

This is why Grammar Nazis need to stop - language is a diverse and
evolving target. You can't keep up and you seem to be paying attention
- how are the normal non-Grammer-Nazi's and non-Anglophiles supposed
to handle it?

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Old 03-22-2011, 12:06 AM
Richard Shaw
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joe Zeff <joe@zeff.us> wrote:
> On 03/21/2011 02:25 PM, Richard Shaw wrote:
>> Do you realize that when you treat someone the way you did that no one
>> cares if your right?
>
> My right what? *Don't you mean "you're right?" *If so, you prove my
> point. *Thank you.

No, don't change my words. I wouldn't have used "if" IF I wanted to
indicate your correctness. I was just trying to tell you to stop being
as a$$hat without actually saying, "Don't be an a$$hat." It's
unnecessary and not particularly helpful.

Richard
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:41 AM
suvayu ali
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Speaking of which, I am not exactly comfortable with why Fedora (or
>> Ubuntu) allow any user to install updates using PackageKit without any
>> root access (or sudo password). I feel that this is not really right
>> from a security point of view....
>
> I don't think that Ubuntu's ever had this issue and I'm pretty sure (I
> hope!) that only F12 had it, very briefly.

Isn't that how Packagekit behaves for updates? It only asks for the
root password when some new package is installed because of
dependencies. At least that is my experience in F13 and F14.

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Open source is the future. It sets us free.
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:42 AM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On 03/21/2011 06:06 PM, Richard Shaw wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joe Zeff<joe@zeff.us> wrote:
>> > On 03/21/2011 02:25 PM, Richard Shaw wrote:
>>> >> Do you realize that when you treat someone the way you did that no one
>>> >> cares if your right?
>> >
>> > My right what? Don't you mean "you're right?" If so, you prove my
>> > point. Thank you.
> No, don't change my words.

I didn't. I merely pointed out that you used the wrong homonym, using
"your" where you probably meant "you're." HTH, HAND.
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