On 01/01/2011 03:23 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Friday 31 December 2010 17:45:14 Michael Schwendt wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 18:41:35 +0200, Johan wrote:
>>> On 12/31/2010 05:20 PM, Rick Sewill wrote:
>>>> For me, when I am logged in, as a normal user, I do have a file,
>>>> ~/.xmms/config, and the line in my file is
>>>> output_plugin=/usr/lib64/xmms/Output/libxmms-pulse.so
>> Which is the Pulse Audio output plugin for XMMS, which is only available
>> if you install the "xmms-pulse" package. That one is not installed by
>> default when installing the "xmms" package.
> I can't help wondering why is this so? Pulseaudio is the default sound server
> on Fedora, and xmms should include the xmms-pulse by default, and prefer to
> use pa over alsa, also by default.
>
> As xmms is configured now, it uses alsa by default, which gets rerouted to pa
> (via the alsa-pulseaudio plugin in pa), which uses alsa as a backend for
> playback. From my perspective, this is plain stupid, xmms should just use pa
> natively, and eliminate the alsa-pa-plugin. It is an unnecessary overhead,
> IMO. And it also breaks the volume slider for xmms...
>
> So what am I missing here? Is it time to bug the xmms maintainers/packagers?
>
> Best, :-)
> Marko
>
Sorry Marko, this far beyond me. Johan
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On Sat, 1 Jan 2011 01:23:38 +0000, Marko wrote:

> On Friday 31 December 2010 17:45:14 Michael Schwendt wrote:
> > On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 18:41:35 +0200, Johan wrote:
> > > On 12/31/2010 05:20 PM, Rick Sewill wrote:
> > > > For me, when I am logged in, as a normal user, I do have a file,
> > > > ~/.xmms/config, and the line in my file is
> > > > output_plugin=/usr/lib64/xmms/Output/libxmms-pulse.so
> >
> > Which is the Pulse Audio output plugin for XMMS, which is only available
> > if you install the "xmms-pulse" package. That one is not installed by
> > default when installing the "xmms" package.
>
> I can't help wondering why is this so? Pulseaudio is the default sound server
> on Fedora, and xmms should include the xmms-pulse by default, and prefer to
> use pa over alsa, also by default.

True. When Pulse Audio became the default, there was a suggestion made to
all audio player packagers to consider making Pulse Audio output the
default. Not mandatory, however, and only where a Pulse Audio output
driver was available. Further, during the early roll-out of Pulse Audio in
Fedora, there have been many problems and several audio players only
featured ALSA output, which worked by default due to Pulse Audio
intercepting the ALSA interface.

xmms-pulse is a separate package built from sources external to XMMS.
It would need circular dependencies to have "xmms" require "xmms-pulse"
and vice versa. Or it would be necessary to merge the two packages out
of convenience. xmms-pulse would need an active maintainer, however, as
it is lacking updates and fixes. Such a maintainer could backport fixes
from Audacious' pulse output plugin, but it is an amount of work.

XMMS has not been developed further in several years. Version 1.2.10 was
available already when Fedora did not exist yet. It has taken years
for a minor release 1.2.11 with a couple of fixes. That has been a few
years ago.

Meanwhile, successors of XMMS (forks like BMP) have started and died
again. But some have done a lot of development and are still actively
maintaining their code and developing it further while at the same time
listening to feedback of their users.

> As xmms is configured now, it uses alsa by default, which gets rerouted to pa
> (via the alsa-pulseaudio plugin in pa), which uses alsa as a backend for
> playback. From my perspective, this is plain stupid, xmms should just use pa
> natively, and eliminate the alsa-pa-plugin. It is an unnecessary overhead,
> IMO. And it also breaks the volume slider for xmms...
>
> So what am I missing here? Is it time to bug the xmms maintainers/packagers?

IMO, it is time for the Fedora community to decide on the fate of XMMS in
the Fedora package collection. Any Fedora user, who still uses XMMS
despite the availability of many alternative audio players, ought to step
up and give the packages some love. From a distributor's perspective, it
would be more clever and convenient to just drop XMMS and its ancient
build requirements GTK+ 1 and GLib 1.
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On 01/01/2011 03:31 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Friday 31 December 2010 16:44:48 Johan Scheepers wrote:
>> On 12/30/2010 01:12 AM, Tim wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 22:33 +0200, Johan Scheepers wrote:
>>>> When tested xmms on mp3, I was logged in as root.
>>> Not a good idea. And as well as the security/reliability issues, you
>>> end up painting yourself into a corner. Get out of the habit of logging
>>> in as root. It's rarely ever needed, other than by someone who's
>>> previously logged in as root, keeps on doing so, and won't break the
>>> habit.
>>>
>>> As for failing to open the sound device: If that's not down to a
>>> problem you've permanently created by modifying things left right and
>>> centre, because you've been logging in as root, then you *may* resolve
>>> that by: Log out as root. Make sure all users are logged off. Log in
>>> normally as a normal user. The sound device should, then, be available
>>> to that user.
>>>
>>> That sort of thing is/was handled by console helper, which assigns the
>>> non-shareable hardware to the user currently logged into the console.
>>>
>>> What's non-shareable hardware? Things like sound, which can't play
>>> music for one user, and play music for another user, concurrently.
>>> Well, not without two different songs playing over the top of each other
>>> out of the same set of speakers. And things like *a* keyboard and *a*
>>> mouse, which also can't be used by two different people at the same
>>> time.
>> What a negative, judgement, useless response.
> What is so negative and useless about it? As for the judgement, Tim is
> completely right, you should *never* log into X as root. It is well known to
> be a Bad Idea (tm). Furthermore, in default Fedora (ie. Gnome) installation,
> root login is deliberately disabled, precisely to avoid the kind of mess you
> got yourself into with xmms, for example.
>
> There is absolutely no reason to log in as root. Just log in as a normal user,
> and if you ever try to do something that requires root privileges, the system
> will just ask you for the root password. It's as simple as that.
>
> You should listen to what Tim said and learn, rather than feeling offended.
>
> Best, :-)
> Marko
>
Ok, maybe some explaining is required.
I am 70 + years.
I use my car as millions of other people do without knowing the inside
workings. Just be sure to do the maintanance. Stick to the rules. Doing
this since I was 10 yrs old and still not care for the inner workings.

The same with my computer and been doing this since 1974 with a sinclair
ZX81 and then the spectrum and then the IBM and so and so on. (36 yrs).
Still don't care for the inner workings just the maintenance.
Started on linux in 1998 with redhat 5 box set. The book in the box
"running linux by O'Reilly". Read it from cover to cover and found it
still valid today. Later mandrake, suse, ubuntu. So I *know* the
dangers of "root".
At the moment I use on different usb external drives, suse 11.3, ubuntu
10.10, debian test, ubuntustudio, centos 5.5, mandriva and now fedora.
Why? I enjoy it and keep my brain working and challenged. When beyond me
I seek advice and learn every day.
If I did not by "mistake" use xmms as root I would not been able to get
the correct advice witch did happen.
I am list member of all these flavours and see how I am not the only one
that need assistance.

I do appreciate the assistance list members do give.
Now I trust this will be the end of this.
Regards
Johan


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On 12/31/2010 09:36 PM, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 20:39:56 +0200, Johan wrote:
>
>> Kindly suggest one that plays mp3 please. Also the plug-ins required please.
>>
>> Have a lot of applications on ---Applications>> sound video
>> None play mp3 except xmms and do it easy.
> Ah, come on, that simply isn't true. Several others just need an
> additional MP3 plugin package just as with XMMS. While for XMMS, the
> package is called "xmms-mp3", it has different names for the other
> players. For example:
>
> $ yum search xmms2
> Loaded plugins: auto-update-debuginfo, langpacks, refresh-packagekit
> Adding en_US to language list
> ================================ Matched: xmms2 ================================
> gkrellxmms2.i686 : Gkrellm2 plugin client for XMMS2
> nyxmms2.i686 : Commandline client for XMMS2
> xmms2-avcodec.i686 : XMMS2 Plugin for avcodec supported formats
> xmms2-devel.i686 : Development libraries and headers for XMMS2
> xmms2-docs.i686 : Development documentation for XMMS2
> xmms2-faad.i686 : XMMS2 Plugin for AAC and MP4 audio formats
> xmms2-freeworld.i686 : Plugins for XMMS2 that cannot be included in Fedora
> xmms2-mad.i686 : XMMS2 Plugin for MPEG Audio files
> xmms2-mms.i686 : XMMS2 Plugin for MMS audio streams
> xmms2-mp4.i686 : XMMS2 Plugin for MP4 audio
> xmms2-perl.i686 : Perl support for XMMS2
> xmms2-python.i686 : Python support for XMMS2
> xmms2-ruby.i686 : Ruby support for XMMS2
> gxmms2.i686 : A graphical audio player
> xmms2.i686 : A modular audio framework and plugin architecture
> esperanza.i686 : A graphical audio player
> lxmusic.i686 : Lightweight XMMS2 client with simple user interface
> gnome-applet-music.i686 : A GNOME panel applet to control various music players
>
> Here, for "xmms2-*" the MP3 plugin package is "xmms2-mad", which is based
> on the MAD audio decoding library for MP3. To add more 3rd party plugins
> (from rpmfusion.org) in one go, one would simply install "xmms2-freeworld".
> Additionally, it would be necessary to install a graphical user interface
> like "lxmusic" (or "gxmms2") because XMMS2 is just an audio framework.
>
> For Audacious 2 (which I use personally and it still offers a skinned
> interface like XMMS, too), the packages are:
>
> audacious
> audacious-freeworld
> (or just audacious-freeworld-mp3 for MP3 support)
> also see: yum list audacious*
>
> For Qmmp, I see:
>
> qmmp
> qmmp-freeworld
>
> Lots of audio players use the GStreamer framework. You can find the additional
> 3rd party plugins for GStreamer with e.g. "yum list gstreamer*". They may
> have strange names, but add support for MP3 and other formats.
Good day Michael,

This is wonderful. The cake and the ingredients.
Learned better usage of yum.
Now more apps playing mp3
Thanks
Regards
Johan
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On Saturday 01 January 2011 10:36:49 Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2011 01:23:38 +0000, Marko wrote:
> > On Friday 31 December 2010 17:45:14 Michael Schwendt wrote:
> > > On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 18:41:35 +0200, Johan wrote:
> > > > On 12/31/2010 05:20 PM, Rick Sewill wrote:
> > > > > For me, when I am logged in, as a normal user, I do have a file,
> > > > > ~/.xmms/config, and the line in my file is
> > > > > output_plugin=/usr/lib64/xmms/Output/libxmms-pulse.so
> > >
> > > Which is the Pulse Audio output plugin for XMMS, which is only
> > > available if you install the "xmms-pulse" package. That one is not
> > > installed by default when installing the "xmms" package.
> >
> > I can't help wondering why is this so? Pulseaudio is the default sound
> > server on Fedora, and xmms should include the xmms-pulse by default, and
> > prefer to use pa over alsa, also by default.
[snip]
> xmms-pulse is a separate package built from sources external to XMMS.
> It would need circular dependencies to have "xmms" require "xmms-pulse"
> and vice versa. Or it would be necessary to merge the two packages out
> of convenience.

Yes, it seems that the circular dependency is the problem here, since xmms-
pulse is an external project to xmms. Makes sense.

> IMO, it is time for the Fedora community to decide on the fate of XMMS in
> the Fedora package collection. Any Fedora user, who still uses XMMS
> despite the availability of many alternative audio players, ought to step
> up and give the packages some love. From a distributor's perspective, it
> would be more clever and convenient to just drop XMMS and its ancient
> build requirements GTK+ 1 and GLib 1.

Unfortunately, I don't have the proper skill or enough time to maintain it.
But I still use XMMS on an everyday basis, and guess I am not the only one.
:-)

My main reasons for not switching to any other player is that (a) XMMS is
simple enough for elementary use (I don't want the player to maintain
databases of my audio collection and such stuff), (b) the default black skin of
XMMS integrates beautifully into the rest of my desktop, and (c) I am used to
the elementary user-interface for playlists since my Windows and Winamp days.

<rant>
I tried out several other players over time, evaluating the possibility to
switch, but they all seemed either overly complicated, overflowed with music-
collection-management interface or other options, or just plain ugly visually.
For example, when I first fired up Amarok, instead of opening some window where
I would find things like "play", "stop", "pause" and "open file", I was
confronted with some sort of a wizard, taking me through steps to collect all
my music into a database from which I could later make a playlist. Naturally,
since I just wanted to play some random file, I was so pissed off with this that
I decided never to try Amarok again. I don't know if the devs removed that
wizard thing in the meantime...
</rant>

If you happen to know any other player which satisfies (a,b,c) in a reasonable
way, especially if there is an exact same black XMMS skin available for it,
I'd appreciate to know about it. ;-)

Best, :-)
Marko

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On Sat, 1 Jan 2011 16:15:36 +0000, Marko wrote:

> > xmms-pulse is a separate package built from sources external to XMMS.
> > It would need circular dependencies to have "xmms" require "xmms-pulse"
> > and vice versa. Or it would be necessary to merge the two packages out
> > of convenience.
>
> Yes, it seems that the circular dependency is the problem here, since xmms-
> pulse is an external project to xmms. Makes sense.

Note though that it's a circular dep at install-time only, not at
build-time. Not a big issue. Lots of other packages create dependencies
like that.

> But I still use XMMS on an everyday basis, and guess I am not the only one.
> :-)
>
> My main reasons for not switching to any other player is that (a) XMMS is
> simple enough for elementary use (I don't want the player to maintain
> databases of my audio collection and such stuff), (b) the default black skin of
> XMMS integrates beautifully into the rest of my desktop, and (c) I am used to
> the elementary user-interface for playlists since my Windows and Winamp days.

> If you happen to know any other player which satisfies (a,b,c) in a reasonable
> way, especially if there is an exact same black XMMS skin available for it,
> I'd appreciate to know about it. ;-)

http://mschwendt.fedorapeople.org/XMMS-vs-Audacious_Screenshot.png

a, b, and c apply to Audacious. It also doesn't maintain any databases like
you describe.
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On Saturday 01 January 2011 16:50:28 Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2011 16:15:36 +0000, Marko wrote:
> > My main reasons for not switching to any other player is that (a) XMMS is
> > simple enough for elementary use (I don't want the player to maintain
> > databases of my audio collection and such stuff), (b) the default black
> > skin of XMMS integrates beautifully into the rest of my desktop, and (c)
> > I am used to the elementary user-interface for playlists since my
> > Windows and Winamp days.
> >
> > If you happen to know any other player which satisfies (a,b,c) in a
> > reasonable way, especially if there is an exact same black XMMS skin
> > available for it, I'd appreciate to know about it. ;-)
>
> http://mschwendt.fedorapeople.org/XMMS-vs-Audacious_Screenshot.png
>
> a, b, and c apply to Audacious. It also doesn't maintain any databases like
> you describe.

I'm impressed! :-) Installing audacious right now, will try it out and maybe
even switch if I find it satisfactory... Thanks! ;-)

Best, :-)
Marko

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On Sat, 2011-01-01 at 12:45 +0200, Johan Scheepers wrote:
> Started on linux in 1998 with redhat 5 box set. The book in the box
> "running linux by O'Reilly". Read it from cover to cover and found it
> still valid today. Later mandrake, suse, ubuntu. So I *know* the
> dangers of "root".

But still, you did it...

If you read my ENTIRE message, you may have paid attention to the bit
about the assigning of access hardware to particular users.

But no, I'm inclined to just say "what a head up ass" user, and leave
you to sort out your self inflicted wounds by yourself. Both now, and
in the future.

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read messages from the public lists.



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