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Old 01-31-2008, 12:55 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Good bye

Ian Malone wrote:

Since this is Karl's thread, his problems with Nvidia and sound should
be famous by now and apply to any kernel modules.


And, as always, he was told ages ago the way to get Nvidia working
on Fedora and chose to ignore it until he stumbled onto it by trial
and error.


He was told different and conflicting ways by different people and
following different sets of advice broke things. Why should an
extremely common user requirement have to be satisfied by following some
random other user's advice from a mail list? As we can see by example,
this doesn't work that well.



I didn't follow his sound problems closely but they
appeared to be with pulseaudio, which was designed to fix a long-
standing sound problem, is not a kernel issue and, in any case, can
be removed and F8 run without it.


He tried to remove 'pulseaudio' instead of the obscure package name that
you actually do have to remove and it damaged his system.



Anyway, we've heard this axe ground so often I'm surprised there's
anything left of it.


Does the truth hurt? What's the problem with repeating it? I'd like to
see something resembling truth-in-advertising on the project site about
the expected user experience for the very common situations where a
vendor driver works better than the stock one or is needed to work at
all, the user wants to run java, VMware or a number of other 3rd party
programs, or the user expects to keep running without re-installing for
any length of time.


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Old 01-31-2008, 01:19 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Good bye

Arthur Pemberton wrote:


But every fedora
version has required new patches to VMware that you have to track down,

Wasn't aware of this. And you're saying that this is intentional by
the Fedora dev team?

Changes don't just happen by accident - someone has to make them.


But you are implying that this is intentional. I think that's
something you should at least backup if you're going to say it.


I can't prove that it is done for no other reason than to break other
people's software, but I trust that the people making the changes are
bright enough to understand how this works. And it doesn't happen in
RHEL, so there are also people who understand how to keep it from
happening and that it makes for a better user experience.



firewire has had about 50/50 odds of working, anything that knew device
names would break from one version to the next,

While some Fedora devs may be kernel hackers, I doubt they are to
blame for firewire support.

Some issues were with the kernel, some with the layering of device
detection when the connection is made or at boot time. Regardless,
fedora doesn't have to ship a broken kernel just because it exists.


Well if the vanilla kernel has this problem, blaming Fedora seems
unreasonable. The general policy is to ship the kernel as vanilla as
possible.


Why shouldn't I blame fedora if they set a policy that frequently causes
broken code to be shipped? The kernel developers no longer maintain a
separate test version so untested changes are obviously going to be
pushed out if you do that and the user consequences are equally obvious.



CIPE hasn't worked since

Are you referring to this CIPE?
http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-mini/Cipe+Masq.html I wasn't familiar
with the term.

Yes, once it was a fill-in-the-form VPN in the networking setup. Next
version it was gone with no options to support existing setups.


I guess no one was interested in supporting it. I haven't heard of it
before myself.


OpenVPN is actually better these days, but CIPE was the preferred and
supported VPN through the earlier RH versions and FC1, then poof, gone
with no trace in FC2 and no transition strategy for maintaining
compatibility so you could upgrade piecemeal - and no continuing
security updates for FC1 so you could continue running it.



And then there is
almost no chance that you can just repeat your steps with the next
version since it will have a huge number of arbitrary changes, including
things that affect hardware compatibility.


I guess your choice of software has a lot of incompatibilities
inherent in it. I am normally up and running on a new Fedora install
for my desktop pretty quickly. I normally spend way more time
customizing the look and feel of my KDE install to my perfection.

It seems that your combination of unsupported software is making
things a lot tougher for you.


I expect an operating system to provide a platform that other things can
run on, either proving stable interfaces so things continue to work
through the fast-paced updates, or some sane way to deal with the
instability.



However, I see no evidence that this is
intentional on the Fedora teams part. Nor do I see how it would
benefit them from exhausting energy into blocking things.


Whether it is a benefit or not depends on the user experience they want
to generate. Who would it harm to provide instructions for installing
common and needed vendor-provide drivers, for example? Is it necessary
to be hostile to both your own users and the best hardware vendors, or
the company that invented java and wants to give it away?


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Old 01-31-2008, 01:36 PM
Eric
 
Default Good bye

At 11:19 AM 1/30/2008, Ferguson, Michael wrote:

>> Ok everybody. Please DO NOT reply to Karl. Please DO NOT..

Yeah, good luck with that... :-

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Old 01-31-2008, 01:40 PM
"Ian Malone"
 
Default Good bye

On 31/01/2008, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:

> He was told different and conflicting ways by different people and
> following different sets of advice broke things. Why should an
> extremely common user requirement have to be satisfied by following some
> random other user's advice from a mail list? As we can see by example,
> this doesn't work that well.
>

Well, one could Google for the answer, look at the unofficial
FAQs or read the responses on the mailing list and try to
form a sensible assessment of the advice being given.

> > Anyway, we've heard this axe ground so often I'm surprised there's
> > anything left of it.
>
> Does the truth hurt? What's the problem with repeating it?

Mainly that it got boring a while back.

> I'd like to see something resembling truth-in-advertising on the
> project site about
[...]

"Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in
free and open source software."

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Old 01-31-2008, 01:43 PM
"Ferguson, Michael"
 
Default Good bye

Yeah, Karl's gone but his legacy remains poignant. hahahah
He has strong pull, quite so. Quite so.



-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com]
On Behalf Of Eric
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:37 AM
To: For users of Fedora
Subject: RE: Good bye

At 11:19 AM 1/30/2008, Ferguson, Michael wrote:

>> Ok everybody. Please DO NOT reply to Karl. Please DO NOT..

Yeah, good luck with that... :-

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Old 01-31-2008, 01:56 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Good bye

Ian Malone wrote:


I'd like to see something resembling truth-in-advertising on the
project site about

[...]

"Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in
free and open source software."


I know enough about software development to know what that means, but I
wouldn't expect an average potential new user to interpret that as
"we'll ship a lot of broken stuff and pretend it's a feature". And
there is nothing about the hostility to outside software.


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Old 01-31-2008, 02:06 PM
James Kosin
 
Default Good bye

Everyone,

In all fairness to Karl (and others like him), we need to be fair.

(1) This is a list for beginners and users. This is not a list for
developers and geeks; although they are extremely welcome to stay and
answer a few questions now and then.
(2) Karl is probably old enough to be many peoples grandfather on this
list. (I'm making a big assumption on this; since Karl has already
revealed his age) So show a bit of respect.
(3) The simple FACT Karl can stir up so much of a response for his
questions only means we may be missing something. (Namely not everyone
is a Linux guru)
(4) In all the responses and the like, everyone has tried helping him
with his problems with the distro. The fact everyone got annoyed by his
questions and responses and off-topic quotes and the like is only adding
fuel to the already burning fire.


Some things to consider:
(a) When someone asks a question, ask yourself... what are they asking
for? Help, documentation, instructions, a gentile ear to listen.
(b) Before you blindly respond, ask "Do I need more information to
intelligently answer the question?", "Can I truly help, or may I just be
adding a distraction in my response confusing others?", "Is it something
I'm familiar with? Answering a question when you don't have all your
facts will only frustrate a simple user."
(c) Try to be KIND! CONSIDERATE!, and POLITE! Adding rude comments,
gestures, or other dis-respectable responses discredits any GOOD answers
you may have.


Lastly, always remember. Like everything else you can alway ignore the
question if you don't have anything constructive to add.


Thanks,
James

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Old 01-31-2008, 02:32 PM
Todd Denniston
 
Default Good bye

Les Mikesell wrote, On 01/31/2008 09:56 AM:

Ian Malone wrote:


I'd like to see something resembling truth-in-advertising on the
project site about

[...]

"Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in
free and open source software."


I know enough about software development to know what that means, but I
wouldn't expect an average potential new user to interpret that as
"we'll ship a lot of broken stuff and pretend it's a feature".


Actually I think it's more of a "hey for those of us who tested rawhide, this
stuff was working (or at least not reported as such), red hat would like those
of you who are adventuresome to let them know if some small portion of this is
ready for a truly stable release of RHEL, and if it breaks we'll try to fix it
quick."


And
there is nothing about the hostility to outside software.




I don't think it is so much hostility as ambivalence. As you can see[1] I am
one of those who has ideas and attitudes that conflict with fedora stated
policy. I understand their policy, I just don't like it, and _I_ can work
around the issue for _now_. And if I wanted something that was rock solid,
unchanging, approved for use in ultra secure environments, with an enterprise
support plan, lacking in packages and out of date for the hardware I have to
work with, I would use an RHEL. The reason we have different distro's out
there is because we all have different trade offs we have to make. [must _try_
debian/ubuntu and see if they will integrate something that works NOW with
smart cards for ssh and encrypted file systems, even if they have a _long_
term plan of using something else to do the same thing.]


Oh and notice the ambivalence in the first part of my reply? RH and I differ
on the statement 'fedora is RHEL beta'.


[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=186469

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Old 01-31-2008, 02:34 PM
 
Default Good bye

> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Kosin
> (3) The simple FACT Karl can stir up so much of a response for his
> questions only means we may be missing something. (Namely
> not everyone
> is a Linux guru)


Ah, yes, the Linux guru. I suspect that there aren't too many gurus on
this list, just a lot of folks with various levels of experience.
Unless, of course, you work on the RedHat or Fedora distros. I just
hope I don't come off as big of a jerk as some of the deluded 'gurus' I
have seen on these lists. Including this one.

James, there a lot of people that agree with you. Thanks for sending
your chillax message.


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Old 01-31-2008, 02:38 PM
Tim
 
Default Good bye

On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 10:06 -0500, James Kosin wrote:
> (2) Karl is probably old enough to be many peoples grandfather on
> this list. (I'm making a big assumption on this; since Karl has
> already revealed his age) So show a bit of respect.

This isn't a "Karl issue". You get respected for acting in a way that
generates respect. It is not something gifted upon you simply due to
age. Acting in a converse manner, which he did, earned himself his
disrespect.

Courtesy is another matter. You try to be courteous to people, as part
of your own good conduct, right from the start. But we're not obligated
to continue to do so towards someone who's being antagonistic. Though,
being courteous towards someone whilst your berating them for being a
prick, can be advantageous ... and amusing for the audience.

Over the years I've encountered many people who've "demanded" respect,
none of which deserved it, so they didn't get it. Those who deserved
respect, got it because their conduct impressed the people around them.

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