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Old 01-21-2008, 11:25 AM
John Summerfield
 
Default CD and DVD ISO images

The latest Fedora newsletter triggered this. Someone was asking about
CD-sized ISO images.


For some time I've wondered whether it might be a Good Thing for distros
to create a bunch of CD-sized ISO images, and then for the DVD-sized ISO
image simply glue the lot into a single ISO image that boots the
installer and installs as usual. I don't see much point to making
different-sized install media that are so different.


Anaconda already has to logic to loop-mount ISO images, it just needs to
be applied to the "CDROM" install path.


There would be space advantages to all who host the distro; they'd
simply host the DVD images.


Users who want the CD images would download the DVD image, loop mount it
on Linux or OS X (I think there's brand-X software for Windows too) and
then extract the ISO images to burn or not.


I'm assuming nobody (Debian users excepted) downloads less than a full
set of images.


Most, but not all, of my too-numerous computers have DVD drives, and
right now I'm looking at installing something that I downloaded as a DVD
image on a system that hasn't a DVD drive.


What do others think?







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Old 01-21-2008, 12:12 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default CD and DVD ISO images

--- John Summerfield <debian@herakles.homelinux.org>
wrote:

>
> The latest Fedora newsletter triggered this. Someone
> was asking about
> CD-sized ISO images.
>
> For some time I've wondered whether it might be a
> Good Thing for distros
> to create a bunch of CD-sized ISO images, and then
> for the DVD-sized ISO
> image simply glue the lot into a single ISO image
> that boots the
> installer and installs as usual. I don't see much
> point to making
> different-sized install media that are so different.
>
> Anaconda already has to logic to loop-mount ISO
> images, it just needs to
> be applied to the "CDROM" install path.
>
> There would be space advantages to all who host the
> distro; they'd
> simply host the DVD images.
>
> Users who want the CD images would download the DVD
> image, loop mount it
> on Linux or OS X (I think there's brand-X software
> for Windows too) and
> then extract the ISO images to burn or not.
>
> I'm assuming nobody (Debian users excepted)
> downloads less than a full
> set of images.
>
> Most, but not all, of my too-numerous computers have
> DVD drives, and
> right now I'm looking at installing something that I
> downloaded as a DVD
> image on a system that hasn't a DVD drive.
>
> What do others think?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Cheers
> John
>
> -- spambait
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> Z1aaaaaaa@coco.merseine.nu
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> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
>
> You cannot reply off-list:-)
>
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>

Excellent Idea!!! This has to go to the Fedora
Packagers/Developers and hope that they can implement
it. It would benefit many that want the cake and eat
it too. Kill more birds with one stone only. The
documentation still needs to be specific as to how to
take the DVD image and make it into CD sized isos.
But this is needed only if they (developers) decide to
go through with this idea.

+1

Regards,

Antonio


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Old 01-21-2008, 01:03 PM
Tim
 
Default CD and DVD ISO images

On Mon, 2008-01-21 at 21:25 +0900, John Summerfield wrote:
> For some time I've wondered whether it might be a Good Thing for
> distros to create a bunch of CD-sized ISO images, and then for the
> DVD-sized ISO image simply glue the lot into a single ISO image that
> boots the installer and installs as usual. I don't see much point to
> making different-sized install media that are so different.
>
> Anaconda already has to logic to loop-mount ISO images, it just needs
> to be applied to the "CDROM" install path.

Didn't the first DVD install offered for Fedora (or Red Hat Linux?) work
that way? With the DVD being several CD ISO files and the extra bits
necessary to install from them.

At least, I seem to recall someone writing instructions somewhere for
creating a DVD install that worked like that (download the ISOs, burn
them to the DVD as just ISO files, etc.).

--
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important to the thread.)

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I read messages from the public lists.

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Old 01-21-2008, 01:26 PM
"Styma, Robert E (Robert)"
 
Default CD and DVD ISO images

>
> The latest Fedora newsletter triggered this. Someone was asking about
> CD-sized ISO images.
>
<snip>
>
> Most, but not all, of my too-numerous computers have DVD drives, and
> right now I'm looking at installing something that I
> downloaded as a DVD
> image on a system that hasn't a DVD drive.
>
> What do others think?
>
I occationally load Fedora on systems which do not have DVD drivers.
I usually mount the DVD on a system with the DVD and then copy the
contents to an exported file system.

On the non-DVD machine I boot from the CD image and specify an
NFS install using the DVD image on the other machine. Works fine
if you have "too-many" computers as do many of us on this list.

In theory, I believe you could export the DVD file system directly
for use with NFS. I have never tried this myself.

Bob S
Phoenix, AZ USA

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Old 01-21-2008, 01:26 PM
Robert L Cochran
 
Default CD and DVD ISO images

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

John Summerfield wrote:
>
> Most, but not all, of my too-numerous computers have DVD drives, and
> right now I'm looking at installing something that I downloaded as a DVD
> image on a system that hasn't a DVD drive.
>

I like the current DVDs because I can mount them and see every package
without having to flip through a stack of CDs.

As to installing something on a computer without a DVD drive using only
a DVD iso, it isn't that hard to do. On the computer that has the DVD
image, loop mount it somewhere like (for example):

mount /home/rlc/jigdo/Fedora-Unity-20071218-8-x86_64-DVD.iso
/home/rlc/mp -t iso9660 -o loop

navigate to the images folder
write the boot.iso image in that folder to a CD.
umount the DVD image.
export its directory over NFS.

On the computer you wish to install Fedora 8 on, take the boot.iso cd
that you just burned and boot to it.

At the prompt, type 'linux askmethod'.

You will eventually be brought to a list of installation methods to
select; choose 'NFS image'.

Specify the location of the DVD iso.

Presto, the installation begins.

There is one small caveat, I have not yet done an NFS install off the
boot.iso image. I can't swear it will be the same as if you popped the
full DVD into a drive and used 'linux askmethod' on that. But I bet it will.

Bob Cochran
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Old 01-21-2008, 01:37 PM
Robert L Cochran
 
Default CD and DVD ISO images

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> export its directory over NFS.
>
> On the computer you wish to install Fedora 8 on, take the boot.iso cd
> that you just burned and boot to it.
>
> At the prompt, type 'linux askmethod'.
>
> You will eventually be brought to a list of installation methods to
> select; choose 'NFS image'.
>
> Specify the location of the DVD iso.
>
> Presto, the installation begins.
>
> There is one small caveat, I have not yet done an NFS install off the
> boot.iso image. I can't swear it will be the same as if you popped the
> full DVD into a drive and used 'linux askmethod' on that. But I bet it will.
>

To clarify this a little more, I have done numerous NFS installs of
Fedora successfully, using either the full DVD or CD iso files.

I have not done an NFS install using the boot.iso cd that one finds in
the images directory as described above. I did, however, boot my machine
to the boot.iso cd just now and I see the same install options are there
on the screen.

I'll have to give this a shot next time.

Bob Cochran
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:35 PM
John Summerfield
 
Default CD and DVD ISO images

Robert L Cochran wrote:



To clarify this a little more, I have done numerous NFS installs of
Fedora successfully, using either the full DVD or CD iso files.

I have not done an NFS install using the boot.iso cd that one finds in
the images directory as described above. I did, however, boot my machine
to the boot.iso cd just now and I see the same install options are there
on the screen.

I'll have to give this a shot next time.


Does this work with the latest EL, Fedora? It seems the repos on the DVD
are more than a little strange.


At least with EL5, there's no documentation included on how to create a
unified repo from the CD set, the procedure that used to work no longer
applies now that the each image is a repo.


_I_ used to loop-mount the DVD image and export via http, but that now
means I need to fight selinux _and_ I've not actually "fixed" the repo
(I need to run createrep at a higher level than the mount-point for the
ISO image).


But no networking solution works for one who'd like to give a CD set to
a mate.






--

Cheers
John

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Old 01-31-2008, 10:18 PM
John Summerfield
 
Default CD and DVD ISO images

Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:

John Summerfield wrote:

Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:

John Summerfield wrote:
There exists a problem for those who want both CD and DVD-sized
images. I've just done a census of the computers around here, and
there's a few that have CD drives, not DVD.




Can you try and explain to me how this is efficient given the
ambition to release DVD ISO images and CD ISO images for Fedora 9?


DVD images about 3.5 Gbytes?
therefore CD images about 3.5 Gbytes

My plan
CD images imbedded in DVD images about 3.5 Gbytes
Saving
About 3.5 Gbytes



So, you would want the DVD holding the CD ISO images to replace both the
DVD ISO image and the CD ISO images? That is going to be very nasty in
terms of distribution as one would need a double loop mount for each CD


Is that difficult? I'd not have thought so. I'm sure I've nested loop
mounts before.



ISO image to be able to use the installation media as a resource for
additional package installation, not to mention the inability of Jigdo
to cope with this -which at this point is just a Release Feature I'm the
owner of.


I am sure that when I learned to use jigdo some years ago, that it
didn't actually care how the file's structured, and that it actually
works with tarballs. See http://atterer.net/jigdo/


That said, when the component files are around 650-700 Mbytes, I do see
a problem, a complication.


I see three alternatives:
1. A wrapper that extracts the imbedded ISOs so that they can be rebuilt
individually, then the DVD
2. DVD images are distributed only through .jigdo, and a wrapper script
be provided to build the CD ISOs and then the DVD ISOs.
3. Modify jigdo to look for a new .jigdo in the same location when it
finds an imbedded .iso. users who tell jigdo to download the .jigdo
might not notice anything changed.


Richard Atterer might be interested on working with you on this; surely
Debian has the same problem.










Having another DVD just containing the CD ISO images doesn't really
make sense to me.


I didn't say "Another DVD." The DVD image containing CD images would
be installable.


The InstallMethod for CDROM would become more like installing from
hard disk.




The first CDROM though would need to contain another set of metadata
which makes opening up the actual repository a pain in the ass -you have
mediaid's there, again.


I don't understand.

Say we built a slightly-modified boot.iso.
Say this boot.iso contains all that's needed to install
Fedora/RHEL/whatever. Just not the repos.

Say it has a root directory, /images.
Say this directory _might_ have a collection of ISOs.
If this directory has a collection of .ISOs, then it offers the user the
possibility of installing from it. If the collection is incomplete, then
it allows changing media during the install process, as it does now for
CD installations.


I can think of variations, and this might not be the best, but I can
imagine it working, though it would require a small change to the
current procedure for installing from CD: boot boot.iso, eject, insert CD1.


As an aside, it might also offer the ability to eject the boot.iso and
burn the imbedded ISOs.




Also, I'm confused what is the real purpose. The DVD ISO image you
can loop mount and publish via HTTP/FTP, or use off an NFS share to
install


I had some difficulty doing that, those media URLs break things. There
was some discussion here or on fedora users or test about it, and the
best I could find was to run createrepo above the mount point.




I see the point here and I agree, but in my opinion this is a pungi bug,
as it used to run splitrepo even though the media consisted of a single
disc. As far as I can tell this has been solved in the Fedora 9 pungi,
which would make this a moot point.


The whole thing's at the moot stage:-)[1]


[1] Originally, (Anglo-saxon Britain), a moot was a council of
elders/community leaders.


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John

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Old 02-02-2008, 02:28 PM
Jeroen van Meeuwen
 
Default CD and DVD ISO images

John Summerfield wrote:

Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
So, you would want the DVD holding the CD ISO images to replace both
the DVD ISO image and the CD ISO images? That is going to be very
nasty in terms of distribution as one would need a double loop mount
for each CD


Is that difficult? I'd not have thought so. I'm sure I've nested loop
mounts before.




I'm not saying it is difficult but we're not Joe Average are we?



ISO image to be able to use the installation media as a resource for
additional package installation, not to mention the inability of Jigdo
to cope with this -which at this point is just a Release Feature I'm
the owner of.


I am sure that when I learned to use jigdo some years ago, that it
didn't actually care how the file's structured, and that it actually
works with tarballs. See http://atterer.net/jigdo/


[...snip...]
Richard Atterer might be interested on working with you on this; surely
Debian has the same problem.




Debian hasn't got that problem; I've spoken to Richard Atterer and he
feels Jigdo is at it's best as it is right now; enough features for what
it's supposed to do and still maintainable. Looking at the code I
couldn't agree with him more.


The first CDROM though would need to contain another set of metadata
which makes opening up the actual repository a pain in the ass -you
have mediaid's there, again.


I don't understand.



If you have packages spread over multiple locations, you will need to
have repository metadata that also lists the exact location of the
package (ergo in this case CD #1, #2, and so on).



Say we built a slightly-modified boot.iso.
Say this boot.iso contains all that's needed to install
Fedora/RHEL/whatever. Just not the repos.

Say it has a root directory, /images.
Say this directory _might_ have a collection of ISOs.
If this directory has a collection of .ISOs, then it offers the user the
possibility of installing from it. If the collection is incomplete, then
it allows changing media during the install process, as it does now for
CD installations.




I'm not sure how this differs in having both DVD ISO images (just as we
have them now), and CD ISO images available with the releases. I do know
having ISO's inside ISO's makes HTTP/FTP installations more difficult as
one would now just extract or loop mount the DVD ISO image whereas in
this new situation one would have to merge the different CD ISO image's
(that you get when loop mounting the DVD ISO image) contents into one
large repository.


Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

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Old 02-07-2008, 11:24 AM
John Summerfield
 
Default CD and DVD ISO images

Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:

John Summerfield wrote:

Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
So, you would want the DVD holding the CD ISO images to replace both
the DVD ISO image and the CD ISO images? That is going to be very
nasty in terms of distribution as one would need a double loop mount
for each CD


Is that difficult? I'd not have thought so. I'm sure I've nested loop
mounts before.




I'm not saying it is difficult but we're not Joe Average are we?


I was referring to the coding; I'm sure the jigdo hackers are up to it.





ISO image to be able to use the installation media as a resource for
additional package installation, not to mention the inability of
Jigdo to cope with this -which at this point is just a Release
Feature I'm the owner of.


I am sure that when I learned to use jigdo some years ago, that it
didn't actually care how the file's structured, and that it actually
works with tarballs. See http://atterer.net/jigdo/


[...snip...]
Richard Atterer might be interested on working with you on this;
surely Debian has the same problem.




Debian hasn't got that problem; I've spoken to Richard Atterer and he
feels Jigdo is at it's best as it is right now; enough features for what
it's supposed to do and still maintainable. Looking at the code I
couldn't agree with him more.


The first CDROM though would need to contain another set of metadata
which makes opening up the actual repository a pain in the ass -you
have mediaid's there, again.


I don't understand.



If you have packages spread over multiple locations, you will need to
have repository metadata that also lists the exact location of the
package (ergo in this case CD #1, #2, and so on).



It makes little difference whether the 650 Mbyte ISOs are imbedded in a
4.5 Gbite ISO, or it's Linux is being installed from those same ISOs
accessible my NFS or from a local hard disk. Both have been working
since RHL 7.2 or thereabouts.


It might be a little different with the advent of yum-in-anaconda.





Say we built a slightly-modified boot.iso.
Say this boot.iso contains all that's needed to install
Fedora/RHEL/whatever. Just not the repos.

Say it has a root directory, /images.
Say this directory _might_ have a collection of ISOs.
If this directory has a collection of .ISOs, then it offers the user
the possibility of installing from it. If the collection is
incomplete, then it allows changing media during the install process,
as it does now for CD installations.




I'm not sure how this differs in having both DVD ISO images (just as we
have them now), and CD ISO images available with the releases. I do know
having ISO's inside ISO's makes HTTP/FTP installations more difficult as
one would now just extract or loop mount the DVD ISO image whereas in
this new situation one would have to merge the different CD ISO image's
(that you get when loop mounting the DVD ISO image) contents into one
large repository.


http installs would be little different whether from 650 Mbyte ISOs
imbedded in a 3.5 Gbyte ISO or downloaded separately. Historically (but
not with the first yum-based Acondas) there's been a README explain how
to make a repo from the CD ISO.


autofs _can_ do loop mounts, I've used it for that purpose. I don't know
whether it can do two on one user access, as it would need to to access
internal ISOs.








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Cheers
John

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