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Old 01-20-2008, 11:34 AM
Tim
 
Default HELP: External 250G USB screwed with GParted

On Sat, 2008-01-19 at 15:31 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> I had the service manager from Edge Technologies (appeared to be
> knowledgeable) tell me that all standard USB cables are suitable for
> USB 2.0

Though how many cheap cables were sold that were really suitable for
nothing other than tying in a knot?

But I'd tend to challenge their assertion. There's a huge increase in
speed between the two, and that means a very large bandwidth change.
It's a much higher signal frequency in use, and any crappy cable
termination, or other cable characteristics, will have a worse effect on
it.

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Old 01-20-2008, 02:11 PM
"André Costa"
 
Default HELP: External 250G USB screwed with GParted

Hi Mikkel,

2008/1/20 Mikkel L. Ellertson <mikkel@infinity-ltd.com>:
> André Costa wrote:
> >
> > I've read some reports about the same error messages suggesting they
> > could be caused by insufficient power on the USB ports (looks like it
> > really fluctuates, and that external drives demand more power than
> > usual USB devices). Initially I wouldn't consider this an option on my
> > case, since the drive already worked on this same port I am trying now
> > before the failed GParted session. However, I don't know if the drive
> > is now in a weird state in which more power is needed...
> >
> > WD sells a "power booster cable" for USD 9.99, but they only sell it
> > on the US =/ I'll try to buy a AC powered USB hub, this should ensure
> > all the power needed and get one variable out of the equation.
> >
> I have 2 2-1/2" USB drives that get their power from the USB bus.
> They both draw more power then one USB connection will easily
> supply. The computer end of the cable has 2 USB plugs, one that is
> only a power connection. To make the drives work right, you have to
> plug in the power-only plug first, wait 10 seconds for the drive to
> spin up, and then plug in the data connection. If you plug them in
> at the same time, or only use one plug, it will sometimes work, but
> it will usually have problems.

Thks for the tip. USB is trickier than I thought... all these
requirements takes all the fun out of it =/

> One other thing to keep in mind - if the drive drew too much power,
> the USB port may have shut down. I know some kernels enforce the
> power limits, but I don't remember if the current kernels do. There
> was debate about this, but I don't remember reading about the final
> decision. Moving to another USB port may fix the problem. (I don't
> remember how to reset the port.) This shotdown may also be BIOS
> dependent. On my laptop, I get overcurrent warnings when waking up
> under Windows sense updating the BIOS. I have not tested this under
> Linux yet.

Mmmh... didn't know about it. However, I've already rebooted the
machine a couple of times, and even booted it on WinXP. I also tried
some other ports, no luck. My guess is that the HDD got stuck into
some inconsistent state, which is in turn confusing the SATA --> USB
logic (don't even know if this makes sense). If that's the case, I
will have to open it up and plug the HDD directly to a SATA controller
to see if it's possible to do any kind of rescue procedure. I already
started looking for it on the web (this was encouraging:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ0bgz3tyNk).

But, before doing that, I'll see if I can try an AC-powered USB hub,
so that I could really confirm that this is not the problem.

Thks for your help.

Regards,

Andre

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Old 01-20-2008, 02:15 PM
"André Costa"
 
Default HELP: External 250G USB screwed with GParted

Hi John,

On Jan 20, 2008 1:54 AM, John Thompson <john@vector.os2.dhs.org> wrote:
> On 2008-01-19, André Costa <blueser@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I plugged my brand new WD Passport Drive
> > [http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=364] on my F8
> > box, and it appeared just fine (I had done this before -- I had even
> > reformatted the partition with NTFS with Windows XP). I wanted to
> > remove the single 250G NTFS partition and create two smaller ones, and
> > reformat them as ext3 and HFS for my girlfriend's MacBook.
> >
> > GParted identified the device just fine, and I had just deleted the
> > original partition and created two smaller ones (110G and 120G),
> > unformatted. When I hit the "apply changes" button, GParted told me it
> > could not see the device anymore. Indeed, it couldn't be seen
> > anywhere. The disk was not mounted anymore, and did not appear as a
> > device on GNOME's nautilus.
>
> What does fdisk say about the device? You can have fdisk write a new,
> empty partition table to start fresh and then create your new
> partitions..

This is my main problem right now: I don't even get to see the device,
since USB layer refuses me access to it =( Once I get past this, I'm
pretty sure it should be recoverable as "any screwed" SATA HDD is (eg.
using fdisk, as you suggested).

But thks anyway =)

Regards,

Andre

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Old 01-20-2008, 05:22 PM
Craig White
 
Default HELP: External 250G USB screwed with GParted

On Sun, 2008-01-20 at 23:04 +1030, Tim wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-01-19 at 15:31 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> > I had the service manager from Edge Technologies (appeared to be
> > knowledgeable) tell me that all standard USB cables are suitable for
> > USB 2.0
>
> Though how many cheap cables were sold that were really suitable for
> nothing other than tying in a knot?
>
> But I'd tend to challenge their assertion. There's a huge increase in
> speed between the two, and that means a very large bandwidth change.
> It's a much higher signal frequency in use, and any crappy cable
> termination, or other cable characteristics, will have a worse effect on
> it.
----
I think this is the difference in our thinking.

When I don't have knowledge of something, I actually cite the best
source I have and relate that I haven't seen any information that
disputes it.

Here you have stated an argument without any evidence to substantiate
your beliefs.

Thanks for your theories...I would probably believe them if I hadn't
caught you talking about things your didn't know in the past.

Craig

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Old 01-21-2008, 01:57 AM
John Thompson
 
Default HELP: External 250G USB screwed with GParted

On 2008-01-20, André Costa <blueser@gmail.com> wrote:

>> What does fdisk say about the device? You can have fdisk write a new,
>> empty partition table to start fresh and then create your new
>> partitions..

> This is my main problem right now: I don't even get to see the device,
> since USB layer refuses me access to it =( Once I get past this, I'm
> pretty sure it should be recoverable as "any screwed" SATA HDD is (eg.
> using fdisk, as you suggested).

Have you tried unloading all the usb modules (using rmmod) and then
reloading them? Or as a last, desparate attempt, rebooting to reset the
hardware and reload the modules fresh?

--

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Old 01-21-2008, 03:53 AM
Tim
 
Default HELP: External 250G USB screwed with GParted

Tim:
>> But I'd tend to challenge their assertion.

[that any old cable will do]

>> There's a huge increase in speed between the two, and that means a
>> very large bandwidth change. It's a much higher signal frequency in
>> use, and any crappy cable termination, or other cable
>> characteristics, will have a worse effect on it.

Craig White:
> When I don't have knowledge of something, I actually cite the best
> source I have and relate that I haven't seen any information that
> disputes it.
>
> Here you have stated an argument without any evidence to substantiate
> your beliefs.

Did you do any research? Do you know anything about the differences
between USB 1 and 2, the speed differences, at least:

Slow USB 1: 12 Mb/s tops
Fastest USB 2: 480 MB/s tops

Now, lets make a very simple conversion and say that the slower one can
put a 12 MHz signal through the cable, and the fastest 480 MHz. Anybody
who works with RF knows that cabling and connections at high frequencies
are a crucial part of getting an undamaged signal. They know that some
connectors are unsuitable for such a wide variance, and that's a very
wide one in this case.

If you pull apart some USB cables, you'll find some are decently
screened, with a proper brade, like coax designed for transmission uses.
And others are just four piddly wires with a crummy spiral wrapped wire
shield. Never mind the quality of the terminations, or the lack of
decent strain relief against tugs on the cable.

There's certainly PLENTY of reasons to believe that some cabling is just
not up to the task of the 480 Mb/s rate that USB 2.0 can manage.

> Thanks for your theories...I would probably believe them if I hadn't
> caught you talking about things your didn't know in the past.

Nice try at playing the straw man game.

Which "Edge Technologies" were you talking about? If it's just some
computer vendor, then I'd be not the slightest bit surprised that they
have no technical electronics knowledge, let alone RF theory.

It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about if you think that
a 480 MHz signal is going work fine through any bit of crappy wiring.

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Old 01-21-2008, 03:55 AM
Tim
 
Default HELP: External 250G USB screwed with GParted

Oh, and let's not forget those who make a broken system magically work
again, just by replacing a cable that still apparently works (with other
things). That refutes the notion that a cable can be the cause.

There's also the DC power issue to consider. Something that draws a lot
of current, to power the device, may have significant losses through a
crappy cable.


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important to the thread.)

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:09 AM
Tim
 
Default HELP: External 250G USB screwed with GParted

On Mon, 2008-01-21 at 15:25 +1030, Tim wrote:
> Oh, and let's not forget those who make a broken system magically work
> again, just by replacing a cable that still apparently works (with
> other things). That refutes the notion that a cable can be the
> cause.

Correction: That refutes the notion that a cable can't be the cause.

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Old 01-21-2008, 04:14 AM
Craig White
 
Default HELP: External 250G USB screwed with GParted

On Mon, 2008-01-21 at 15:23 +1030, Tim wrote:
> Tim:
> >> But I'd tend to challenge their assertion.
>
> [that any old cable will do]
>
> >> There's a huge increase in speed between the two, and that means a
> >> very large bandwidth change. It's a much higher signal frequency in
> >> use, and any crappy cable termination, or other cable
> >> characteristics, will have a worse effect on it.
>
> Craig White:
> > When I don't have knowledge of something, I actually cite the best
> > source I have and relate that I haven't seen any information that
> > disputes it.
> >
> > Here you have stated an argument without any evidence to substantiate
> > your beliefs.
>
> Did you do any research? Do you know anything about the differences
> between USB 1 and 2, the speed differences, at least:
>
> Slow USB 1: 12 Mb/s tops
> Fastest USB 2: 480 MB/s tops
>
> Now, lets make a very simple conversion and say that the slower one can
> put a 12 MHz signal through the cable, and the fastest 480 MHz. Anybody
> who works with RF knows that cabling and connections at high frequencies
> are a crucial part of getting an undamaged signal. They know that some
> connectors are unsuitable for such a wide variance, and that's a very
> wide one in this case.
>
> If you pull apart some USB cables, you'll find some are decently
> screened, with a proper brade, like coax designed for transmission uses.
> And others are just four piddly wires with a crummy spiral wrapped wire
> shield. Never mind the quality of the terminations, or the lack of
> decent strain relief against tugs on the cable.
>
> There's certainly PLENTY of reasons to believe that some cabling is just
> not up to the task of the 480 Mb/s rate that USB 2.0 can manage.
>
> > Thanks for your theories...I would probably believe them if I hadn't
> > caught you talking about things your didn't know in the past.
>
> Nice try at playing the straw man game.
>
> Which "Edge Technologies" were you talking about? If it's just some
> computer vendor, then I'd be not the slightest bit surprised that they
> have no technical electronics knowledge, let alone RF theory.
>
> It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about if you think that
> a 480 MHz signal is going work fine through any bit of crappy wiring.
----
I admit that I have made absolutely no research on USB cables
whatsoever.

All of the trivia quoted above is absolutely pointless with the
exception that you want to use pointless trivia to proffer your
knowledge.

If you actually knew of some commercial USB cable that was being sold
that was incapable of handling USB 2.0, you might have actually offered
information that was useful to someone.

Craig

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Old 01-21-2008, 04:32 AM
Tim
 
Default HELP: External 250G USB screwed with GParted

On Sun, 2008-01-20 at 22:14 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> All of the trivia quoted above is absolutely pointless with the
> exception that you want to use pointless trivia to proffer your
> knowledge.

What you call "trivia" is factual information about what's involved.
You wanted me to back up my assertion, I've just explained all the
background information for you. Now you want to call the information
that explains it as pointless. Since you don't understand it, ask
someone else to confirm it for you.

You remind me of lay people who, upon being advised by their doctor, who
actually know what they're talking about, say "pfft, what would they
know?"

> If you actually knew of some commercial USB cable that was being sold
> that was incapable of handling USB 2.0, you might have actually
> offered information that was useful to someone.

Do you realise how stupid it is to even ask that? How many hundreds of
brands may be available for purchase? How many different brands in
different places that aren't available at the other places? How many
that are fine, but aren't mentioned by someone, so people won't buy
them? How many of the same product are sold by different labels? How
many of different products are sold under the same label?

--
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important to the thread.)

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
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