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Old 07-07-2010, 11:22 PM
Timothy Murphy
 
Default The quietness of preupgrade

I preupgraded from F-12 to F-13 today,
and it nearly all went well.
But I found the long periods when nothing seemed to be happening
off-putting, to put it mildly.

It spent 30-60 minutes "searching for storage" -
what is that about?
I assumed the program had hung, but I was watching the World Cup,
so didn't mind waiting,
and was amazed to find the program actually returned to life
just as the game ended.

It really would be helpful if developers could make sure
that some kind of message, even if it is just a row of dots,
comes up from time to time.

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

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Old 07-08-2010, 12:37 AM
Ed Greshko
 
Default The quietness of preupgrade

On 07/08/2010 07:22 AM, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> I preupgraded from F-12 to F-13 today,
> and it nearly all went well.
> But I found the long periods when nothing seemed to be happening
> off-putting, to put it mildly.
>
> It spent 30-60 minutes "searching for storage" -
> what is that about?
> I assumed the program had hung, but I was watching the World Cup,
> so didn't mind waiting,
> and was amazed to find the program actually returned to life
> just as the game ended.
>
Maybe it was watching too?
> It really would be helpful if developers could make sure
> that some kind of message, even if it is just a row of dots,
> comes up from time to time.
>
>
I assume you will fill a RFE (Request for Enhancement)? :-) :-)


--
I'm reporting for duty as a modern person. I want to do the Latin Hustle
now! 葛斯克 愛德華 / 台北市八德路四段

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Old 07-08-2010, 12:39 AM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default The quietness of preupgrade

--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Timothy Murphy <gayleard@eircom.net> wrote:

> From: Timothy Murphy <gayleard@eircom.net>
> Subject: The quietness of preupgrade
> To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:22 PM
>
> I preupgraded from F-12 to F-13 today,
> and it nearly all went well.
> But I found the long periods when nothing seemed to be
> happening
> off-putting, to put it mildly.
>
> It spent 30-60 minutes "searching for storage" -
> what is that about?
> I assumed the program had hung, but I was watching the
> World Cup,
> so didn't mind waiting,
> and was amazed to find the program actually returned to
> life
> just as the game ended.
>
> It really would be helpful if developers could make sure
> that some kind of message, even if it is just a row of
> dots,
> comes up from time to time.
>
> --

<humor>
A message telling you pregupgrade cannot continue since Germany is losing to Spain, it just has 11 minutes to catch up if it has a chance of working?

Or we are going to overtime to install this, are you ready for penalty kicks?

</humor>

Actually, one of the major problems of preupgrade has been the small boot partition(200MB) and Fedora 13 has addressed this by making the boot partition 500 MB. Other than that, preupgrade should work fine.

Regards,

Antonio

P.S
Who do you like in the final?
Holland or Spain?

Germany was playing beautifully up until today, I am actually disappointed that we did not have overtime or penalty kicks I love those Panneka shots like Loco Abreu took for Uruguay, but has not happened. All of this of course not on the final. I would like the final to be won in added time, with a goalkeeper scoring, either by a header or a kick. I would like to see the goalkeeper score one, because normally one does not see these things happen But it does add fun to the GAME



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Old 07-08-2010, 12:42 AM
Ed Greshko
 
Default The quietness of preupgrade

On 07/08/2010 08:37 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> I assume you will fill a RFE (Request for Enhancement)? :-) :-)
>
>
File, file, file..... Native English speakers have PEBKAC too....

--
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葛斯克 愛德華 / 台北市八德路四段
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Old 07-08-2010, 01:56 AM
Robert Myers
 
Default The quietness of preupgrade

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Timothy Murphy <gayleard@eircom.net> wrote:


It really would be helpful if developers could make sure

that some kind of message, even if it is just a row of dots,

comes up from time to time.

The most general response to your request would appear to require violation of the Halting Theorem. *I think you could force a dot with an interrupt, but it wouldn't really tell you anything. *The program could still be hung.

As it is, the problem is even more complicated than what is contemplated by the Halting Theorem, since an installer depends on expected responses from hardware. *If the response never comes...

You could be getting dot dot dot, and it wouldn't mean a thing. *Sort of like waiting for Godot.
If some poor soul at Microsoft couldn't deliver a version of Vista that reassured Steve Ballmer (who allegedly throws furniture) that wonderful new Vista was actually doing something while he sat there and waited with an important customer, do you think this problem will be solved by the FOSS community?

Robert.

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Old 07-08-2010, 02:32 AM
Craig White
 
Default The quietness of preupgrade

On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 21:56 -0400, Robert Myers wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Timothy Murphy <gayleard@eircom.net>
> wrote:
>
> It really would be helpful if developers could make sure
> that some kind of message, even if it is just a row of dots,
> comes up from time to time.
>
>
> The most general response to your request would appear to require
> violation of the Halting Theorem. I think you could force a dot with
> an interrupt, but it wouldn't really tell you anything. The program
> could still be hung.
>
>
> As it is, the problem is even more complicated than what is
> contemplated by the Halting Theorem, since an installer depends on
> expected responses from hardware. If the response never comes...
>
>
> You could be getting dot dot dot, and it wouldn't mean a thing. Sort
> of like waiting for Godot.
>
>
> If some poor soul at Microsoft couldn't deliver a version of Vista
> that reassured Steve Ballmer (who allegedly throws furniture) that
> wonderful new Vista was actually doing something while he sat there
> and waited with an important customer, do you think this problem will
> be solved by the FOSS community?
----
this has nothing to do with whatever MS does or doesn't do - we are
simple creatures and comforted with simple things like some indication
of progress.

I agree with Ed - file an RFE against preupgrade for progress indicators
along the way (though I do remember seeing progress indications when
under GTK so I gather this is after reboot and during automatic
installation phase and it probably was already contemplated).

Craig



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Old 07-08-2010, 02:46 AM
Robert Myers
 
Default The quietness of preupgrade

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Craig White <craigwhite@azapple.com> wrote:

On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 21:56 -0400, Robert Myers wrote:

>

> If some poor soul at Microsoft couldn't deliver a version of Vista

> that reassured Steve Ballmer (who allegedly throws furniture) that

> wonderful new Vista was actually doing something while he sat there

> and waited with an important customer, do you think this problem will

> be solved by the FOSS community?

----

this has nothing to do with whatever MS does or doesn't do - we are

simple creatures and comforted with simple things like some indication

of progress.

Even if such an indication is either not theoretically possible or meaningless.
Robert.

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Old 07-08-2010, 03:12 AM
Patrick O'Callaghan
 
Default The quietness of preupgrade

On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 21:56 -0400, Robert Myers wrote:
> > It really would be helpful if developers could make sure
> > that some kind of message, even if it is just a row of dots,
> > comes up from time to time.
> >
>
> The most general response to your request would appear to require
> violation of the Halting Theorem. I think you could force a dot with
> an interrupt, but it wouldn't really tell you anything. The program
> could still be hung.

It depends on what you mean by "hung". If we're talking about "in an
unforeseen state caused by a bug" then of course the HT prevents
detecting this reliably. However in this case I think the OP means
something more ordinary, "not finished yet because there's a lot to do".
This doesn't prevent giving a meaningful progress report.

poc

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Old 07-08-2010, 03:24 AM
Robert Myers
 
Default The quietness of preupgrade

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan <pocallaghan@gmail.com> wrote:





It depends on what you mean by "hung". If we're talking about "in an

unforeseen state caused by a bug" then of course the HT prevents

detecting this reliably. However in this case I think the OP means

something more ordinary, "not finished yet because there's a lot to do".

This doesn't prevent giving a meaningful progress report.

If you think you know what you are talking about, perhaps you would consider a fixed-fee contract on a perpetual motion machine.

From a practical point of view, all possible states of a program cannot be examined and tested. *If you want to think of some extreme state (the assumed hardware gives misleading answers, for example) as a "bug," so be it, but I wouldn't be hiring you to manage anything.

Robert.*

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Old 07-08-2010, 03:33 AM
Ed Greshko
 
Default The quietness of preupgrade

On 07/08/2010 11:24 AM, Robert Myers wrote:
> If you think you know what you are talking about, perhaps you would
> consider a fixed-fee contract on a perpetual motion machine.
>
> From a practical point of view, all possible states of a program
> cannot be examined and tested. If you want to think of some extreme
> state (the assumed hardware gives misleading answers, for example) as
> a "bug," so be it, but I wouldn't be hiring you to manage anything.
I hope you realize that you lose a lot of credibility when you stray
from discussing technical matters to sarcasm in order to debase a fellow
poster.

--
"...a most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!" -- _Bill And Ted's
Excellent Adventure_ 葛斯克 愛德華 / 台北市八德路四段

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