++

It's about time someone said this and I honestly think that lots of
developers will be thinking the same.


In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda and
force it on both the developers and the users so maybe it would be best
for all if paludis and it's developers were to concentrate on making
paludis for a different distro. Trollix may be a good place to start...


Mauricio Lima Pilla wrote:

Chris++

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 PM, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org
<mailto:wolf31o2@gentoo.org>> wrote:


On Sun, 2008-06-15 at 15:50 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Do you think that the differences between the proportion of patches
> from 'Paludis people' that are accepted or rejected and the
proportion
> of patches from 'Portage people' or 'Pkgcore people' indicates a
> problem?

Nope. What I see as a problem is that the primary author and current
de facto maintainer is so much of an asshole that he was forcibly
removed from the Gentoo project, which PMS is supposed to be written
for, and has ostracized (at least) one of the package manager's
development team with his constant not-so-subtle attacks. Quite
frankly, I'd prefer see Gentoo take control over the specification that
defines the most important single feature of Gentoo and remove the
non-Gentoo developers from its development. No offense, but you're not
a Gentoo developer any longer and you shouldn't have a say in how *we*
manage ourselves. You're more than welcome to contribute code, fork, or
whatever the hell you want. This is open source, after all, but that
doesn't mean you should be allowed to hold the position of power over
Gentoo that you've been granted.

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer




--
Mauricio Lima Pilla
Polytechnic Center - UCPEL

pilla@ucpel.tche.br <mailtoilla@ucpel.tche.br>,
mauricio.pilla@gmail.com <mailto:mauricio.pilla@gmail.com>

http://g3pd.ucpel.tche.br/~pilla
key 0x37705BE0

"I'm just very selective about the reality I choose to accept."
-- Calvin


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On Thursday 19 June 2008 04:09:26 George Prowse wrote:
> In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda

Lies and FUD.

> maybe it would be best for all if paludis and it's developers were to
> concentrate on making paludis for a different distro. Trollix may be a
> good place to start...

Oh look, speaking of agendas....
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On Thursday 19 June 2008 01:23:33 Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Considering that the "most recent official release" is 2008.0_beta2, I
> don't see where you have a point, at all.

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/#doc_chap5

"The latest release of Gentoo Linux is:

"Gentoo Linux 2007.0 for Alpha, AMD64, HPPA, IA64, MIPS, PPC, S390, SH, SPARC,
and x86 architectures. "

2007.0 is also the first version listed at
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/where.xml

The point is to avoid breaking Portage versions that users might reasonably be
using, even if only briefly. Do you really expect /all/ users doing a new
installation to choose the scary beta instead of the nice safe release?
Perhaps we all know that the beta is better because it's so much more up to
date. Maybe it's even just as stable, if not more so (I wouldn't know, I
haven't tried it). But as long as it's labelled "beta", at least some people
are going to avoid it in favour of 2007.0, and breaking the tree for those
people such that they can't upgrade is unacceptable.
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David Leverton wrote:

On Thursday 19 June 2008 01:23:33 Chris Gianelloni wrote:

Considering that the "most recent official release" is 2008.0_beta2, I
don't see where you have a point, at all.


http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/#doc_chap5

"The latest release of Gentoo Linux is:

"Gentoo Linux 2007.0 for Alpha, AMD64, HPPA, IA64, MIPS, PPC, S390, SH, SPARC,
and x86 architectures. "


2007.0 is also the first version listed at
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/where.xml




Good point, doc team please update those places.

The point is to avoid breaking Portage versions that users might reasonably be
using, even if only briefly. Do you really expect /all/ users doing a new
installation to choose the scary beta instead of the nice safe release?


What about those who do not update since 1.0? how could they survive the
havoc?


Well I do have my opinion about this:

http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero/glep/migrationpath.rst

IFF we would like to be _that_ helpful for such minority of users.
Otherwise isn't that hard update portage in safe mode anyway.


Trying to make HUGE MONSTERS of little corner case is the favorite sport
of Ciaranm and crew, be it a "beta" tag, an obscure feature some
developers may like for tracking live sources (and the user should not
use), possible fut{ure,ile} changes in the ebuild format.


lu - putting in perspective

--

Luca Barbato
Gentoo Council Member
Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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Chris Gianelloni wrote:

On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 12:22 +0200, Luca Barbato wrote:

David Leverton wrote:

On Friday 13 June 2008 11:10:46 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:

Interesting to note, however, that Paludis doesn't accept inline
comments, and this behaviour predates PMS.
There's a reason for Paludis not accepting them, and the same reason applies
to the question of allowing them in PMS or not, therefore PMS doesn't allow
them. There's no evil conspiracy here, just pure logic.

Care to share the logic and wise reasoning ?


[ "${IDEA_ORIGIN}" != "Ciaran" ] && die


I tend to agree.

--

Luca Barbato
Gentoo Council Member
Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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David Leverton wrote:

On Thursday 19 June 2008 04:09:26 George Prowse wrote:

In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda


Lies and FUD.


No


maybe it would be best for all if paludis and it's developers were to
concentrate on making paludis for a different distro. Trollix may be a
good place to start...


Oh look, speaking of agendas....


...are you issuing a press release for exherbo?

lu

--

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Gentoo Council Member
Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 8:39 AM, George Prowse wrote:
> ++
>
> It's about time someone said this and I honestly think that lots of
> developers will be thinking the same.

++

I'm not a developer, but I'm a Gentoo Summer of Code student[0] so
maybe my experience counts for something:

I approached this package manager mess with a completely open mind. I
did not see any reason why someone would behave the way people were
saying the Paludis folk did. I used to idle on both #pkgcore and
#paludis, and occasionally contributed in both channels[1][2]. The
result however, was a personal verification[3] of what people had been
telling me all along.

Ciaran deliberately steers threads in a completely non-productive
direction[4] for reasons completely beyond me[5]. If I didn't know better
I'd think he had been hired by someone to constantly plant seeds of
disharmony and chaos within Gentoo.

However, one thing is for certain. There is no doubt that his tactics
waste everyone's time and energy.

~Nirbheek Chauhan who is quite depressed to see all this.

0. http://tinyurl.com/4plr7c
1. http://pastebin.osuosl.org/8455
2. http://pastebin.osuosl.org/8456
3. http://pastebin.osuosl.org/7939
4. Ciaran's reply (http://tinyurl.com/5sldtc) to Brian's mail
(http://tinyurl.com/5zuf7y) and my reply to it
(http://tinyurl.com/5l4ddk)
5. http://tinyurl.com/6b5sfb

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On Thursday 19 June 2008 08:41:34 Luca Barbato wrote:
> > The point is to avoid breaking Portage versions that users might
> > reasonably be using, even if only briefly. Do you really expect /all/
> > users doing a new installation to choose the scary beta instead of the
> > nice safe release?
>
> What about those who do not update since 1.0? how could they survive the
> havoc?

Is avoiding a beta version of something moderately important (like, say,
installation media) really equivalent to not updating for over five years?

> Trying to make HUGE MONSTERS of little corner case is the favorite sport
> of Ciaranm and crew, be it a "beta" tag, an obscure feature some
> developers may like for tracking live sources (and the user should not
> use), possible fut{ure,ile} changes in the ebuild format.

Please take the ad hominems elsewhere.
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On Thursday 19 June 2008 08:44:41 Luca Barbato wrote:
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 12:22 +0200, Luca Barbato wrote:
> >> Care to share the logic and wise reasoning ?
> >
> > [ "${IDEA_ORIGIN}" != "Ciaran" ] && die
>
> I tend to agree.

The reason has already been explained multiple times, kindly stop with the
personal attacks and silly conspiracy theories.
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On Thursday 19 June 2008 08:46:02 Luca Barbato wrote:
> David Leverton wrote:
> > On Thursday 19 June 2008 04:09:26 George Prowse wrote:
> >> In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda
> >
> > Lies and FUD.
>
> No

Yes.

> ...are you issuing a press release for exherbo?

What the hell does Exherbo have to do with anything?
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