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Old 06-12-2008, 10:03 PM
George Prowse
 
Default

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:32:35 +0100
George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com> wrote:

If the bickering is stopping development then maybe it should be
given to a 3rd party to complete and have the last word.


Considering third parties have at best contributed a few small patches,
I don't see that getting very far... If a third party's genuinely
prepared to take over and do the work they're more than welcome to.

I dont see that the work isn't done, I see arguing about standards and
implementations and as there is 3 voices in this and little is being
decided then anything that can't be sorted should be submitted for
review and decisions taken.


There are things that I don't understand about the EAPI structure (why
versions may be incompatible with each other) but it seems like we are
heading for differing standards soon.


Feel free to flame and call me a fool...
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 06-12-2008, 11:13 PM
James Morris
 
Default

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008, max bianco wrote:

> >> snd_intel8x0m fglrx(P)(U) snd_ac97_codec snd_pcm_oss ac97_bus tg3
> >
> > fglrx being the guilty culprit.
> >
>
> So did fglrx freeze the machine or did SELinux?

The binary fglrx driver has a bug in it, which we can't fix, because
we don't have the source.

It's a general problem with binary drivers.


- James
--
James Morris
<jmorris@namei.org>

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Old 06-13-2008, 12:08 AM
Brian Harring
 
Default

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 11:39:21AM +0200, Fernando J. Pereda wrote:
>
> On 12 Jun 2008, at 04:16, Brian Harring wrote:
> >
> >Why the exherbo/paludis/PMS folk decided to go this route to report,
> >I'm not quite sure aside from assuming they're just griefers.
>
> s-exherbo/paludis/PMS-pkgcore-g and:
>
> http://fpereda.wordpress.com/2008/05/03/on-cooperating-and-paludis-vulnerability/
>
> Except this one wasn't a lie.
>
> I wish there were more cooperation between all of us. But looks like
> it is impossible with some of your people.

While patrick hosts meatoo for pythonhead, that doesn't mean patrick
can speak for meatoo.

The same applies for pkgcore.

Basically, I don't hold paludis devs responsible for their users
behaviour (probably should considering the behaviour, but regardless).
I do however hold paludis devs responsible for their *own* behaviour-
and in this particular case, it *was* said devs commiting the
offense.

Deflection aside, dropping the issue- I've made my point that it was
serious crap behaviour and hardly in the spirit of cooperation (let
alone QA).
~harring
 
Old 06-13-2008, 12:11 AM
Brian Harring
 
Default

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 07:02:52AM -0400, Thomas Anderson wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 07:16:05PM -0700, Brian Harring wrote:
> I'm not quite sure how you're trying to present this, but are you really
> trying to say that EAPI 1 isn't documented? I myself found this in
> pms.pdf in 2 minutes(it's section 10.1.3). I wouldn't exactly say it's
> because it was "missed in implementing an undocumented spec."

Stand corrected- last time I shot through checking into eapi1, the
only spot I could find information in a singular place is bugs.g.o; w/
the kdebuild merge to pms, they at least built up a table of
capabilities/per eapi.

One thing missing in the doc is the delta between 0 and 1, without
scraping the whole doc to identify the diffs (such a thing would be
useful).

~harring
 
Old 06-13-2008, 12:42 AM
Duncan
 
Default

David Leverton <levertond@googlemail.com> posted
200806122258.26896.levertond@googlemail.com, excerpted below, on Thu, 12
Jun 2008 22:58:26 +0100:

> On Thursday 12 June 2008 22:21:48 Wernfried Haas wrote:
>> Agreed, if this is the way PMS is done, we should either get rid of it
>> or do it differently.
>> The current status as presented here is inacceptable.
>
> Could someone please explain what's wrong with PMS, other than "needs
> moar XML" and "I hate the people doing it"?

Umm... pardon me for speaking my mind a bit here, and nothing personal,
particularly since I have the utmost respect for the talent and skills of
the people involved, but after seeing a pattern repeated over the last
couple days I've seen time and time before, it's getting tiresome enough
to write up!

In this instance, it's the "pulling teeth" to get info on a claimed known
bug from PMS folks on pkgcore, while at the same time, complaints about
the non-clarity of PMS is met with remarks (by the same group of people)
of (paraphrased) "filed a patch yet?"

The problem is that this hasn't been the only case. There's a pattern.
It /frequently/ takes a day or two's worth of mails to get any decent
info out of this paludis/PMS lead, with him claiming it should be
obvious, but it's not, and while even the slightest criticism the other
way is met with filed a patch yet?

Eventually the dog and pony circus every time to drag out the needed
information gets old -- both for those forced to be the dog and ponies,
and for those reading it.

Ultimately, something's going to give. Either information won't require
a dog and pony show to get so often from the current solution, or another
solution, perhaps inferior otherwise and certainly a duplication of
effort, will have to be found.

It's not just pkgcore either, it's two of the three current PMs having
problems, with the "One True Way" that everyone with any sense must
/surely/ see is superior (or so it seems the thought is) gets filed a bug
(or patch) yet if met with any criticism as well, from the same folks
that it's like pulling teeth from to get any info from them. It has also
been a pattern in quite a number of previous multi-day multi-hundred-post
threads on various topics, involving the same people with the same
pattern, refusing to answer a simple request for info on the one hand,
while demanding bugs and/or patches when it's their turn.

What if the "filed a bug yet" attitude held on both sides, or even if one
side simply refused to play that begging dog or tricking pony the other
side expects them to be? It simply cannot go on that way forever.
Something's going to give, now, or later, when there's ultimately no more
Gentoo to pull apart and therefore no more Gentoo PMs or PMS to continue
fighting over.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman

--
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Old 06-13-2008, 01:12 AM
Duncan
 
Default

Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> posted pan.2008.06.13.00.42.33@cox.net,
excerpted below, on Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:42:34 +0000:

> Umm... pardon me for speaking my mind a bit here, and nothing personal,
> particularly since I have the utmost respect for the talent and skills
> of the people involved, but after seeing a pattern repeated over the
> last couple days I've seen time and time before, it's getting tiresome
> enough to write up!

> What if the "filed a bug yet" attitude held on both sides, or even if
> one side simply refused to play that begging dog or tricking pony the
> other side expects them to be? It simply cannot go on that way forever.
> Something's going to give, now, or later, when there's ultimately no
> more Gentoo to pull apart and therefore no more Gentoo PMs or PMS to
> continue fighting over.

OK, blame the continued posting on lack of sleep if you'd like, but it's
an honestly held opinion. What makes it worse is that the people
involved are, honestly, very skilled. Were it not so, were they say,
more like me (heh), it'd be easy enough to simply ignore them. However,
they can be very helpful when they want to be, it's a big loss, and it's
only this sick idea of entertainment, forcing humans to the humiliation
of basically doing tricks like animals for a bit of what after all is
claimed to be so simple information but that others can't seem to see,
that's the problem. The trouble is, the info, once the performance has
been deemed to have gone on long enough, is so often right...

Still, ultimately, there are better ways to get it. If one person won't
provide it without someone stooping to his low idea of entertainment,
well, either time will provide, or perhaps it was a not-so-critical
corner case after all.

If we could only treat each other as humans instead of trained circus
animals, something I'm still endeavoring to do, even in all this, thus
pointing out the virtues and a very good reason for respect, as well.
No, the information doesn't /have/ to be provided as has been well
demonstrated, but it sure hopes when we're all at least ideally targeting
a similar goal, if we cooperate in going that direction, instead of
fighting over it.

Poisonous people indeed... I was skeptical at first, but the
demonstration has continued until I'm beginning to come, ever so
regretfully, to the same conclusion.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman

--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 06-13-2008, 01:13 AM
"David Leverton"
 
Default

2008/6/13 Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net>:
> In this instance, it's the "pulling teeth" to get info on a claimed known
> bug from PMS folks on pkgcore, while at the same time, complaints about
> the non-clarity of PMS is met with remarks (by the same group of people)
> of (paraphrased) "filed a patch yet?"

In the case of the pkgcore bug, there was an objective statement of
the fact that a bug existed, including simple instructions for
reproducing it (which were dismissed by a certain person claiming he
had already done so and found no bug - clearly a lie). In the case
of PMS, we have vague ad-hominems - not even "complaints about the
non-clarity", which in any case would be highly subjective, but just a
shrill "inacceptable".

> The problem is that this hasn't been the only case. There's a pattern.
> It /frequently/ takes a day or two's worth of mails to get any decent
> info out of this paludis/PMS lead, with him claiming it should be
> obvious, but it's not, and while even the slightest criticism the other
> way is met with filed a patch yet?

The pkgcore was (or should have been) highly obvious to anyone who had
so much glanced at the offending code.

> It's not just pkgcore either, it's two of the three current PMs having
> problems, with the "One True Way" that everyone with any sense must
> /surely/ see is superior (or so it seems the thought is) gets filed a bug
> (or patch) yet if met with any criticism as well, from the same folks
> that it's like pulling teeth from to get any info from them.

I can't even parse this sentence.
--
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:00 AM
"Arun Raghavan"
 
Default

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 6:43 AM, David Leverton
<levertond@googlemail.com> wrote:
> 2008/6/13 Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net>:
>> In this instance, it's the "pulling teeth" to get info on a claimed known
>> bug from PMS folks on pkgcore, while at the same time, complaints about
>> the non-clarity of PMS is met with remarks (by the same group of people)
>> of (paraphrased) "filed a patch yet?"
>
> In the case of the pkgcore bug, there was an objective statement of
> the fact that a bug existed, including simple instructions for
> reproducing it (which were dismissed by a certain person claiming he
> had already done so and found no bug - clearly a lie). In the case

There's a bug is an objective statement, I agree. Write some tests and
figure it out for yourself is simply malice (yes, I realise it was you
who provided the failing ebuild, and that is appreciated).

And why do you have to be plain insulting about it? Nobody can
magically spot every single bug in any piece of code presented to
them. In fact it's why the "given enough eyes ..." adage is one of the
bases of open source development.

I _honestly_ do not understand why there is so much trouble in simple
cooperation amongst adults.

Regards,
--
Arun Raghavan
(http://nemesis.accosted.net)
v2sw5Chw4+5ln4pr6$OFck2ma4+9u8w3+1!m?l7+9GSCKi056
e6+9i4b8/9HTAen4+5g4/8APa2Xs8r1/2p5-8 hackerkey.com
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gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 06-13-2008, 05:26 AM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default

On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:30:54 +0530
"Arun Raghavan" <arunisgod@gmail.com> wrote:
> And why do you have to be plain insulting about it? Nobody can
> magically spot every single bug in any piece of code presented to
> them. In fact it's why the "given enough eyes ..." adage is one of the
> bases of open source development.

Which is why any responsible person ensures good test coverage.

> I _honestly_ do not understand why there is so much trouble in simple
> cooperation amongst adults.

I agree entirely. Why the pkgcore people refuse to do basic automated
tests is completely beyond me.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 06-13-2008, 06:02 AM
"Arun Raghavan"
 
Default

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Ciaran McCreesh
<ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
[...]
>> I _honestly_ do not understand why there is so much trouble in simple
>> cooperation amongst adults.
>
> I agree entirely. Why the pkgcore people refuse to do basic automated
> tests is completely beyond me.

This seems to be more of the kind of baiting that you use to cause
threads to spiral into irrelevant bickering that more than enough
people on this list are sick of having their mailboxes flooded with.
So I'm out of this thread until there is a reasonable discussion
happening.

--
Arun Raghavan
(http://nemesis.accosted.net)
v2sw5Chw4+5ln4pr6$OFck2ma4+9u8w3+1!m?l7+9GSCKi056
e6+9i4b8/9HTAen4+5g4/8APa2Xs8r1/2p5-8 hackerkey.com
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