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Old 01-04-2012, 08:04 PM
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Default

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Don Juan <donjuansjiz@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 01/04/2012 08:14 AM, Leonid Isaev wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 03:25:40 -0500
>> Jonathan Vasquez<jvasquez1011@gmail.com> *wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Just because a person didn't go to
>>> medical school, doesn't mean that they can research and learn anything
>>> in the field of medicine. That logic is ridiculous, and as we have and
>>> will experience in our lives, applies towards other areas of life.
>>>
>>> Those are my worthless cents as well I suppose .
>>>
>> Please understand that what you are talking about is not research, but an
>> accumulation of information==noise from dumb bloggers.
>>
>> What they teach in medschool is to use your brain, not the collective
>> knowledge. If you are so confident in your self-diagnosis, just talk to
>> the
>> doctor and let him challenge your reasoning -- you'll see that even if
>> your
>> conclusion was correct, this was a shear luck.
>>
>> Wikipedia may be good for trivial things (diagnosing a running nose in
>> your
>> terms) or reading about the comparison between email clients, but is
>> completely misleading in more sophisiticated problems. This is because
>> people
>> who could actually improve it are way to busy / don't care to do so.
>>
> Any chance we can all drop this stuff now and maybe share some advice/help
> on the OP question or other ones on the list currently, I know I would
> happily take even some flaming now on my battery question :P

@Don Juan

Lol at your House comment.

@Angel Velasquez

It's ok, I perfectly understand that a person can get confused when
similar names come up.
It probably has happened to all of us at least once .

I also agree that the Linux community repeats the same info over and
over again, and that it gets
annoying. That's one of the reasons I was attracted to Arch. Because
instead of a person having to repeat
themselves, they could easily just write a well written documentation,
and send people to read them. While
at the other end, the asking user could finally find a well written
document, that would actually be able to help
them, because it was well written in the first place. It benefits both
parties. I also do not like to repeat myself,
and strive to write good documentation once, so that people will
understand it better. That's one of the reasons why
I make Youtube videos. Visual learning is a great way to teach
someone. Especially the people that are too comfortable to read,
which they will have to get over it.

I don't believe I am more valuable, or more important than anyone
else. I signed up to these mailing lists about a week ago,
there is no where to signing up to the Arch mailing list where it says
"You must bottom post". Some communities top post by default,
some do inline posting, and some do bottom posting. It's something
that a person has to learn and adapt to while they are in the
community.
If you look at all my posts in the last 3-4+ days, they are all now
written in bottom-post format. There may be 1 or 2 that slipt since
I switch between my phone and computer, and I have to disable top
quotes, etc. Also I didn't pull the "oh look I have more contributions
then
you card". If you look at my post, I said that my comments are
valuable and are not noob-irrelevant-spam-troll like comments because
I'm an
actual Arch linux user. Not just some random person. I showed some of
my contributions so that you can understand that I am an Archer, I am
a contributing user, and I legitimiately card about the future of Arch
Linux, therefore my constructive criticism to not just OS design, but
also
to Etiquette behavior should be heard (Doesn't have to be followed,
but at least listened to). That's how democracy works. By listening to
it's
citizens. Same goes with the AUR, and when people vote for packages
for inclusion into the community repo. So I hope I cleared that I
wasn't trying
to compare my contributions to anybody else. I'm sure, proud, and
happy that we have members like Gaetan and you in our community
because I'm sure
that you also help, want to continue helping, and love Arch linux just
as any other Archer.

I don't know how said Arch is the natural replacement for Ubuntu
either. I did say multiple times, in my videos, and in these posts
that
as long as a person is willing to read documentation, that it doesn't
matter what there starting position is. Doesn't matter if they are a
noob,
or a pro user from another Distro or OS. The important thing is that
they are willing to read the documentation in order to further their
knowledge.
So I completely agree with you as well Angel, and it's exactly what
I'm promoting and have been saying.

I'm glad you have helped a lot of people in this community, and I'm
sure you will continue to do so. I'm not happy that you or anyone else
has
to receive Troll comments. Now I believe that as a person with an
@archlinux domain in your email, you are not just a regular Archer,
but you
of course are an esteemed member in the community. Therefore as a
person with authority, you have to be a roll model for everyone else.
I'm not
saying you have to take crap from anyone, but I am saying that you
definitely can't be making "troll-like comments". That doesn't look
good,
especially when an outsider comes to look at Arch and sees people with
power trolling on it's users. They will surely leave, no matter how
noob,
or pro they are.

You don't have to apologize to me. Drama, and correct etiquette
behavior are two different things.

Thanks, I will continue to learn .

@Leonid Isaev

Of course, a person definitely has to use his/her brain when reading
anything online. That's why I said we have to be careful with what
we read, and why people need to keep an open mind when they read the
information and go to speak to their doctors about it. There will most
likely be a flaw, and the doctor will need to correct that flaw and
logic. It's also the doctor's responsability at that point to not act
arrogantly and try to make the patient feel stupid for them trying to
self-diagnose themselves. Life's a two way street, and there are
responsabilities at both ends.

--
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Old 01-04-2012, 08:09 PM
Karol Blazewicz
 
Default

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Jonathan Vasquez
<jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's how democracy works. By listening to it's citizens.
> Same goes with the AUR, and when people vote for packages
> for inclusion into the community repo

Errr, no. It's still up to devs and TUs to include a package in the repos.
Also https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette#Respect_The_Staff
Members of The Forum Team have been chosen for their ability to
exercise consistently good judgment and shall have the final say. Note
that this forum is not run as a democracy.
 
Old 01-04-2012, 08:14 PM
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Default

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Karol Blazewicz
<karol.blazewicz@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Jonathan Vasquez
> <jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:
>> That's how democracy works. By listening to it's citizens.
>> Same goes with the AUR, and when people vote for packages
>> for inclusion into the community repo
>
> Errr, no. It's still up to devs and TUs to include a package in the repos.
> Also https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette#Respect_The_Staff
> Members of The Forum Team have been chosen for their ability to
> exercise consistently good judgment and shall have the final say. Note
> that this forum is not run as a democracy.

Never said the entire community was a democracy, I did say thought
that like a democracy people vote for the packages to be included.
You are right, that the Trusted Users have the final say on what
packages get included, I never said otherwise. We obviously can't let
everyone in the community have read/write access to the community
repo,
but the packages that the community members voted for in the AUR, are
being looked at by the Trusted Users. That's not a problem to me, and
if anything is a sign of a Representative Democracy. In the AUR aspect
specifically.

--
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Old 01-04-2012, 08:16 PM
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Default

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Jonathan Vasquez <jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Karol Blazewicz
> <karol.blazewicz@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Jonathan Vasquez
>> <jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> That's how democracy works. By listening to it's citizens.
>>> Same goes with the AUR, and when people vote for packages
>>> for inclusion into the community repo
>>
>> Errr, no. It's still up to devs and TUs to include a package in the repos.
>> Also https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette#Respect_The_Staff
>> Members of The Forum Team have been chosen for their ability to
>> exercise consistently good judgment and shall have the final say. Note
>> that this forum is not run as a democracy.
>
> Never said the entire community was a democracy, I did say thought
> that like a democracy people vote for the packages to be included.
> You are right, that the Trusted Users have the final say on what
> packages get included, I never said otherwise. We obviously can't let
> everyone in the community have read/write access to the community
> repo,
> but the packages that the community members voted for in the AUR, are
> being looked at by the Trusted Users. That's not a problem to me, and
> if anything is a sign of a Representative Democracy. In the AUR aspect
> specifically.
>
> --
> Jonathan Vasquez

Hitler was also chosen because of his intelligence and other
credentials. How does this relate? Just because a person is elected
because of "perceived" credentials that you can obviously prove that
they have,
does not mean that the person will continue to act in that fashion.
Hopefully they will.

--
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Old 01-04-2012, 08:28 PM
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Default

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Allan McRae <allan@archlinux.org> wrote:
> On 05/01/12 07:14, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Karol Blazewicz
>> <karol.blazewicz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Jonathan Vasquez
>>> <jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> That's how democracy works. By listening to it's citizens.
>>>> Same goes with the AUR, and when people vote for packages
>>>> for inclusion into the community repo
>>>
>>> Errr, no. It's still up to devs and TUs to include a package in the repos.
>>> Also https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette#Respect_The_Staff
>>> Members of The Forum Team have been chosen for their ability to
>>> exercise consistently good judgment and shall have the final say. Note
>>> that this forum is not run as a democracy.
>>
>> Never said the entire community was a democracy, I did say thought
>> that like a democracy people vote for the packages to be included.
>> You are right, that the Trusted Users have the final say on what
>> packages get included, I never said otherwise. We obviously can't let
>> everyone in the community have read/write access to the community
>> repo,
>> but the packages that the community members voted for in the AUR, are
>> being looked at by the Trusted Users. That's not a problem to me, and
>> if anything is a sign of a Representative Democracy. In the AUR aspect
>> specifically.
>>
>
> Are you sure TUs pay attention to votes (apart from the minimum required
> number)? *I always just pulled the packages I wanted...
>

No I'm not sure, but from I've read, I remember it saying that the
packages that the community votes for, are considered for inclusion in
the community repo.


--
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Old 01-04-2012, 08:30 PM
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Default

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Jonathan Vasquez <jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Allan McRae <allan@archlinux.org> wrote:
Are you sure TUs pay attention to votes (apart from the minimum required
>> number)? *I always just pulled the packages I wanted...
>>

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_User_Repository

A good number of new packages that enter the official repositories
start in the AUR. In the AUR, users are able to contribute their own
package builds (PKGBUILD and related files). The AUR community has the
ability to vote for or against packages in the AUR. If a package
becomes popular enough -- provided it has a compatible license and
good packaging technique -- it may be entered into the [community]
repository (directly accessible by pacman or abs).

--
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Old 01-04-2012, 08:32 PM
Don Juan
 
Default

On 01/04/2012 01:04 PM, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Don Juan<donjuansjiz@gmail.com> wrote:

On 01/04/2012 08:14 AM, Leonid Isaev wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 03:25:40 -0500
Jonathan Vasquez<jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:


[...]

Just because a person didn't go to
medical school, doesn't mean that they can research and learn anything
in the field of medicine. That logic is ridiculous, and as we have and
will experience in our lives, applies towards other areas of life.

Those are my worthless cents as well I suppose .


Please understand that what you are talking about is not research, but an
accumulation of information==noise from dumb bloggers.

What they teach in medschool is to use your brain, not the collective
knowledge. If you are so confident in your self-diagnosis, just talk to
the
doctor and let him challenge your reasoning -- you'll see that even if
your
conclusion was correct, this was a shear luck.

Wikipedia may be good for trivial things (diagnosing a running nose in
your
terms) or reading about the comparison between email clients, but is
completely misleading in more sophisiticated problems. This is because
people
who could actually improve it are way to busy / don't care to do so.


Any chance we can all drop this stuff now and maybe share some advice/help
on the OP question or other ones on the list currently, I know I would
happily take even some flaming now on my battery question :P

@Don Juan

Lol at your House comment.

@Angel Velasquez

It's ok, I perfectly understand that a person can get confused when
similar names come up.
It probably has happened to all of us at least once .

I also agree that the Linux community repeats the same info over and
over again, and that it gets
annoying. That's one of the reasons I was attracted to Arch. Because
instead of a person having to repeat
themselves, they could easily just write a well written documentation,
and send people to read them. While
at the other end, the asking user could finally find a well written
document, that would actually be able to help
them, because it was well written in the first place. It benefits both
parties. I also do not like to repeat myself,
and strive to write good documentation once, so that people will
understand it better. That's one of the reasons why
I make Youtube videos. Visual learning is a great way to teach
someone. Especially the people that are too comfortable to read,
which they will have to get over it.

I don't believe I am more valuable, or more important than anyone
else. I signed up to these mailing lists about a week ago,
there is no where to signing up to the Arch mailing list where it says
"You must bottom post". Some communities top post by default,
some do inline posting, and some do bottom posting. It's something
that a person has to learn and adapt to while they are in the
community.
If you look at all my posts in the last 3-4+ days, they are all now
written in bottom-post format. There may be 1 or 2 that slipt since
I switch between my phone and computer, and I have to disable top
quotes, etc. Also I didn't pull the "oh look I have more contributions
then
you card". If you look at my post, I said that my comments are
valuable and are not noob-irrelevant-spam-troll like comments because
I'm an
actual Arch linux user. Not just some random person. I showed some of
my contributions so that you can understand that I am an Archer, I am
a contributing user, and I legitimiately card about the future of Arch
Linux, therefore my constructive criticism to not just OS design, but
also
to Etiquette behavior should be heard (Doesn't have to be followed,
but at least listened to). That's how democracy works. By listening to
it's
citizens. Same goes with the AUR, and when people vote for packages
for inclusion into the community repo. So I hope I cleared that I
wasn't trying
to compare my contributions to anybody else. I'm sure, proud, and
happy that we have members like Gaetan and you in our community
because I'm sure
that you also help, want to continue helping, and love Arch linux just
as any other Archer.

I don't know how said Arch is the natural replacement for Ubuntu
either. I did say multiple times, in my videos, and in these posts
that
as long as a person is willing to read documentation, that it doesn't
matter what there starting position is. Doesn't matter if they are a
noob,
or a pro user from another Distro or OS. The important thing is that
they are willing to read the documentation in order to further their
knowledge.
So I completely agree with you as well Angel, and it's exactly what
I'm promoting and have been saying.

I'm glad you have helped a lot of people in this community, and I'm
sure you will continue to do so. I'm not happy that you or anyone else
has
to receive Troll comments. Now I believe that as a person with an
@archlinux domain in your email, you are not just a regular Archer,
but you
of course are an esteemed member in the community. Therefore as a
person with authority, you have to be a roll model for everyone else.
I'm not
saying you have to take crap from anyone, but I am saying that you
definitely can't be making "troll-like comments". That doesn't look
good,
especially when an outsider comes to look at Arch and sees people with
power trolling on it's users. They will surely leave, no matter how
noob,
or pro they are.

You don't have to apologize to me. Drama, and correct etiquette
behavior are two different things.

Thanks, I will continue to learn .

@Leonid Isaev

Of course, a person definitely has to use his/her brain when reading
anything online. That's why I said we have to be careful with what
we read, and why people need to keep an open mind when they read the
information and go to speak to their doctors about it. There will most
Or ask for advice from an experienced Archer for clarification on whats
been read, or the lack of finding something to read in relation to a
issue, miss configuration due to not grasping something. Or it could
even boil down to weak google-fu skills on part of the new comer.


But if its something clearly discussed in the Wiki or is something thats
been answered in the MB archives, most other boards I belong to just
flat out say nothing. Which with the mind set and wants of other Archers
would be a good thing. Or posting one of those let me google it for you
links. I built a quick little one for another board for a COM unit I use.


Anyways no more noise from me on this topic.


likely be a flaw, and the doctor will need to correct that flaw and
logic. It's also the doctor's responsability at that point to not act
arrogantly and try to make the patient feel stupid for them trying to
self-diagnose themselves. Life's a two way street, and there are
responsabilities at both ends.




Can we tag this [solved]^3 now? lol
 
Old 01-04-2012, 08:34 PM
Allan McRae
 
Default

On 05/01/12 07:14, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Karol Blazewicz
> <karol.blazewicz@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Jonathan Vasquez
>> <jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> That's how democracy works. By listening to it's citizens.
>>> Same goes with the AUR, and when people vote for packages
>>> for inclusion into the community repo
>>
>> Errr, no. It's still up to devs and TUs to include a package in the repos.
>> Also https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette#Respect_The_Staff
>> Members of The Forum Team have been chosen for their ability to
>> exercise consistently good judgment and shall have the final say. Note
>> that this forum is not run as a democracy.
>
> Never said the entire community was a democracy, I did say thought
> that like a democracy people vote for the packages to be included.
> You are right, that the Trusted Users have the final say on what
> packages get included, I never said otherwise. We obviously can't let
> everyone in the community have read/write access to the community
> repo,
> but the packages that the community members voted for in the AUR, are
> being looked at by the Trusted Users. That's not a problem to me, and
> if anything is a sign of a Representative Democracy. In the AUR aspect
> specifically.
>

Are you sure TUs pay attention to votes (apart from the minimum required
number)? I always just pulled the packages I wanted...
 
Old 01-04-2012, 10:26 PM
Peter Lewis
 
Default

On Wednesday 04 Jan 2012 16:16:45 Jonathan Vasquez wrote:
> > Never said the entire community was a democracy, I did say thought
> > that like a democracy people vote for the packages to be included.
> > You are right, that the Trusted Users have the final say on what
> > packages get included, I never said otherwise. We obviously can't let
> > everyone in the community have read/write access to the community
> > repo, but the packages that the community members voted for in the AUR,
> > are being looked at by the Trusted Users. That's not a problem to me, and
> > if anything is a sign of a Representative Democracy. In the AUR aspect
> > specifically.
>
> Hitler was also chosen because of his intelligence and other
> credentials. How does this relate? Just because a person is elected
> because of "perceived" credentials that you can obviously prove that
> they have, does not mean that the person will continue to act in that
> fashion. Hopefully they will.

24+ messages in a thread which itself is a split from its original. Nice to
see that Godwin's Law [1] still applies on "proper" mailing lists in 2012 ;-)

Happy new year folks!

Pete.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
 
Old 01-05-2012, 12:11 AM
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Default

On Jan 4, 2012 6:26 PM, "Peter Lewis" <plewis@aur.archlinux.org> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 04 Jan 2012 16:16:45 Jonathan Vasquez wrote:
> > > Never said the entire community was a democracy, I did say thought
> > > that like a democracy people vote for the packages to be included.
> > > You are right, that the Trusted Users have the final say on what
> > > packages get included, I never said otherwise. We obviously can't let
> > > everyone in the community have read/write access to the community
> > > repo, but the packages that the community members voted for in the
AUR,
> > > are being looked at by the Trusted Users. That's not a problem to me,
and
> > > if anything is a sign of a Representative Democracy. In the AUR aspect
> > > specifically.
> >
> > Hitler was also chosen because of his intelligence and other
> > credentials. How does this relate? Just because a person is elected
> > because of "perceived" credentials that you can obviously prove that
> > they have, does not mean that the person will continue to act in that
> > fashion. Hopefully they will.
>
> 24+ messages in a thread which itself is a split from its original. Nice
to
> see that Godwin's Law [1] still applies on "proper" mailing lists in 2012
;-)
>
> Happy new year folks!
>
> Pete.
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
>

Lol Pete. I was actually speaking to Ross about this law when he brought it
to my attention. I didn't even know it existed and I normally tend to
refrain from bringing Hitler into a conversion. Maybe I should have brought
a politician that always promises things, but once elected changes his
views and attitudes.

Happy new year as well.
 

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