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Old 01-04-2012, 11:49 AM
Ray Rashif
 
Default

On 4 January 2012 16:25, Jonathan Vasquez <jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:
> Think of Doctors. Sometimes when you feel sick, you go online and you
> try to do your due diligence. Trying to find out what is wrong with
> you (Diagnosing yourself), even though you aren't a doctor. But you
> try to do it anyways because searching for information, and finding a
> solution tends to be something that us hackers have haha (How can we
> be using a distro as great as Arch, and not be used to searching for
> information and solutions? :] ). Once you find the information, you
> feel pretty good about it. Of course since you know you aren't a
> doctor, you clearly know that you might be wrong, and keep an open
> mind about your current solution, until you go see the doctor. Once
> you go see the doctor and try to explain to them your research and
> theories, some of the doctors respond very negative towards you,
> basically down playing your intelligence because you didn't go to
> eight years of medical school. Just because a person didn't go to
> medical school, doesn't mean that they can research and learn anything
> in the field of medicine. That logic is ridiculous, and as we have and
> will experience in our lives, applies towards other areas of life.

I like this, +1

Once I was in this exact situation, and I couldn't punch the guy
because I didn't have an MBBS to support myself. No offence to you
doctors; you have a respectable profession, but sometimes you have to
realise there are patients who could've joined you in medical school
if they wanted to.

In the same manner, we shouldn't discredit a computer user just
because he's never had much experience with that many operating
systems, that is to say there are actually people who jump straight to
Arch Linux from Windows and face no problems.


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1
 
Old 01-04-2012, 11:54 AM
Peter Cannon
 
Default

On 04/01/12 03:25, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

Carry on doing what *you* want not what others want you to do. I too
joined "The pain of making tea." that is Arch Linux due to the statement
that used to be on display;


*Q)*When I run “pacman –sync” it comes up with “could
not open sync database:reponame have you used –refresh yet?” but when I
run pacman –refresh it does nothing?!

*A)*This error is due to your inability to read man pages. We
recommend you try the pacman man page – it really is very useful.

I also agree that it's probably not for an absolute beginner, however if
you can read a wiki or a forum then I see no reason why a so called n00b
shouldn't give Arch a go.


I see no excuse for arrogance or rudeness people that do that can "Get
off my lawn." thank you very much.


"There is *every* excuse for not knowing, there is *no* excuse for not
asking."


#freedom
 
Old 01-04-2012, 12:52 PM
Lorenzo Bandieri
 
Default

> Think of Doctors. Sometimes when you feel sick, you go online and you
> try to do your due diligence. Trying to find out what is wrong with
> you (Diagnosing yourself), even though you aren't a doctor. But you
> try to do it anyways because searching for information, and finding a
> solution tends to be something that us hackers have haha (How can we
> be using a distro as great as Arch, and not be used to searching for
> information and solutions? :] ). Once you find the information, you
> feel pretty good about it. Of course since you know you aren't a
> doctor, you clearly know that you might be wrong, and keep an open
> mind about your current solution, until you go see the doctor. Once
> you go see the doctor and try to explain to them your research and
> theories, some of the doctors respond very negative towards you,
> basically down playing your intelligence because you didn't go to
> eight years of medical school. Just because a person didn't go to
> medical school, doesn't mean that they can research and learn anything
> in the field of medicine. That logic is ridiculous, and as we have and
> will experience in our lives, applies towards other areas of life.
>
> Those are my worthless cents as well I suppose .
>
>
> --
> Jonathan Vasquez

+1

I can somewhat relate to this situation since I am a med student and I
use linux (currently arch and gentoo). When first installed linux I
was an absolute computer/internet illiterate; today my knowledge is
better, though obviously limited. I admit that in the past I may have
asked really dumb question, but from my point of view, experienced
linux users often forget how difficult is to enter into a field about
which you know absolutely nothing. Yes, there are howtos,
documentation, man pages... but at the very beginning, it's not that
easy.

Ignorance should never be an excuse for a rude response, at least when
ignorance isn't accompanied by the obvious willingness to remain
ignorant. Knowledge doesn't imply nor require arrogance or rudeness.
If not, every person that is knowledgeable in a field could mistreat
everyone else who is not as equally competent in that particular area.
I wonder what these unpolite linux gurus would think if one day I'd
answered them something like "Are you kidding me? Seriously, you are
asking me if your contact lenses can *get lost behind your eyeball*?
If you had RTMF you'd know this is impossible. Now GTFO, and next time
*google it*, for the love of God... noob."

Just the thoughts of a computer ignorant.

Lorenzo

--
Nothing is interesting if you're not interested.
 
Old 01-04-2012, 12:58 PM
Don Juan
 
Default

On 01/04/2012 05:52 AM, Lorenzo Bandieri wrote:

Think of Doctors. Sometimes when you feel sick, you go online and you
try to do your due diligence. Trying to find out what is wrong with
you (Diagnosing yourself), even though you aren't a doctor. But you
try to do it anyways because searching for information, and finding a
solution tends to be something that us hackers have haha (How can we
be using a distro as great as Arch, and not be used to searching for
information and solutions? :] ). Once you find the information, you
feel pretty good about it. Of course since you know you aren't a
doctor, you clearly know that you might be wrong, and keep an open
mind about your current solution, until you go see the doctor. Once
you go see the doctor and try to explain to them your research and
theories, some of the doctors respond very negative towards you,
basically down playing your intelligence because you didn't go to
eight years of medical school. Just because a person didn't go to
medical school, doesn't mean that they can research and learn anything
in the field of medicine. That logic is ridiculous, and as we have and
will experience in our lives, applies towards other areas of life.

Those are my worthless cents as well I suppose .


--
Jonathan Vasquez

+1

I can somewhat relate to this situation since I am a med student and I
use linux (currently arch and gentoo). When first installed linux I
was an absolute computer/internet illiterate; today my knowledge is
better, though obviously limited. I admit that in the past I may have
asked really dumb question, but from my point of view, experienced
linux users often forget how difficult is to enter into a field about
which you know absolutely nothing. Yes, there are howtos,
documentation, man pages... but at the very beginning, it's not that
easy.

Ignorance should never be an excuse for a rude response, at least when
ignorance isn't accompanied by the obvious willingness to remain
ignorant. Knowledge doesn't imply nor require arrogance or rudeness.
If not, every person that is knowledgeable in a field could mistreat
everyone else who is not as equally competent in that particular area.
I wonder what these unpolite linux gurus would think if one day I'd
answered them something like "Are you kidding me? Seriously, you are
asking me if your contact lenses can *get lost behind your eyeball*?
If you had RTMF you'd know this is impossible. Now GTFO, and next time
*google it*, for the love of God... noob."

Just the thoughts of a computer ignorant.

Lorenzo


+1

I would love to go to a doctor that is like that, I think more should be
like house LOL
 
Old 01-04-2012, 01:23 PM
"Alessio 'Blaster' Biancalana"
 
Default

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 2:52 PM, Lorenzo Bandieri <lorenzo.bandieri@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> Ignorance should never be an excuse for a rude response, at least when
> ignorance isn't accompanied by the obvious willingness to remain
> ignorant.


Epic quotation, coudn't agree more.
And as Don said, I think that a Linux user doctor with this knowledge ideal
can be a great career man in medicine world.

(And we all will come for a visit, indeed )
 
Old 01-04-2012, 01:27 PM
Angel Velásquez
 
Default

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 04/01/12 09:54, Peter Cannon wrote:
> On 04/01/12 03:25, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:
>
> Carry on doing what *you* want not what others want you to do. I
> too joined "The pain of making tea." that is Arch Linux due to the
> statement that used to be on display;
>
> *Q)*When I run “pacman –sync” it comes up with “could not open
> sync database:reponame have you used –refresh yet?” but when I run
> pacman –refresh it does nothing?!
>
> *A)*This error is due to your inability to read man pages. We
> recommend you try the pacman man page – it really is very useful.
>
> I also agree that it's probably not for an absolute beginner,
> however if you can read a wiki or a forum then I see no reason why
> a so called n00b shouldn't give Arch a go.
>
> I see no excuse for arrogance or rudeness people that do that can
> "Get off my lawn." thank you very much.
>
> "There is *every* excuse for not knowing, there is *no* excuse for
> not asking."
>
> #freedom

Usually when I go to a doctor he doesn't accurate his diagnostic ..
maybe in 70% of the cases (as optimum) he have to ask proper
information, and I have to give him, if I say "i don't know" too him
so many times, he will try to figure out what I have and for sure that
70% of accuracy on his diagnostic will fail.

What I wanted to say with this is, sometimes get bombed by a chain of
mails with some non-sense info which can confuse a lot it's
irrelevant, and as Jonathan and Javier (which I thought they're
related or the same person at some point .. that happens with similar
names, imagine somebody called for example Andrés Velásquez writting
here i'd be confusing.)

The problem is that in my point of view, we're sick of repeating stuff
to somepeople, I usually ignore posts from top-posters since them
confuse me a lot, that's why I said my troll comment, which in fact
was accurated but not on the topic (comparing again with a doctor,
imagine going to the doctor he's doing a complete exam to your body to
determine why .. you have a hurt in your hand .. and he said something
like .. "oh did you injured your knee before?".

Again, the most funny part of this stuff was the thing when Jonathan
believe he is so valuable than the rest of people who have to beg him
to don't do top-posting. Seriously dude, I don't want to play the card
of "see my mail address" or "google my name" in order to compare
contributions, even .. it's funny that you want to compare your
contributions with me or Gaetan .. we didn't that with you, and we're
speaking as a user like you, we are not just developers of the project
we are actually users, so it's totally pointless to play that card.

Again, as i've saying before, i don't know who the hell said that the
natural replacement of ubuntu is Arch .. out community is people who
like to read, and people who like to investigate .. not people who
like some magic recipes. Even if somepeople wrote some of these
recipes for Arch, our distro try to teach the user, if you are willing
to learn, a couple of troll comments it's part of the scenary,
whining.. so please stop crying.. and start researching.

That's said, i've been helping a lot of people in this community, i've
discussed with lot of people too, and i got troll comments several
times, despite my contributions of i've helped them in the past, i
don't think in that deeply, i just let it go, my advice.. is when you
don't like a reply.. just let it go.

I won't say sorry if you feel offended, stop the drama. In fact i
congratulate that you actually hhave learned something in this
community (in this mailing list at least).

Cheers.

- --
Angel Velásquez
angvp @ irc.freenode.net
Arch Linux Developer / Trusted User
Linux Counter: #359909
http://www.angvp.com
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:48 PM
Tom Gundersen
 
Default

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:25 AM, Jonathan Vasquez <jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:
> You are misunderstanding my goals and what I've said.
>
> I said that I'm trying to help people find and use Arch. Whether they
> are expert users from other distros, or they are Noobies who are
> "willing to read documentation". If a person is a noob, that doesn't
> mean that they can't use Arch, they just have to be motivated
> individuals who are willing to seek and learn for themselves. I am
> facilitating resources, documentations, etc, to lower the barrier to
> entry, while at the same time giving information that is in the
> documentation, in a video form.
>
> So we completely agree, the point of Arch, and us, isn't to just go
> around and find noobies that don't want to learn for themselves but
> want others to do the work for them, but to find people that are
> willing to learn, seek for themselves, and contribute back to the
> community. This does not segregate "Noobs who want others to do things
> for them", "Noobs who are willing to be independent and learn for
> themselves", and "Expert users from other Distros who want to learn
> how to use Arch".

Haven't really been following this discussion or read your resources,
but just wanted to add that I think that making information more
accessible and easier to understand is a good thing, so keep it up.

We should of course be wary of leading people into doing things
without understanding them first (which seems to be the way things are
done in e.g. the Ubuntu forums), but I guess that goes without saying.

-t
 
Old 01-04-2012, 01:48 PM
Stefan Wilkens
 
Default

2012/1/4 Angel Velsquez <angvp@archlinux.org>:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Again, as i've saying before, i don't know who the hell said that the
> natural replacement of ubuntu is Arch .. out community is people who
> like to read, and people who like to investigate .. not people who
> like some magic recipes. Even if somepeople wrote some of these
> recipes for Arch, our distro try to teach the user, if you are willing
> to learn, a couple of troll comments it's part of the scenary,
> whining.. so please stop crying.. and start researching.
>
> That's said, i've been helping a lot of people in this community, i've
> discussed with lot of people too, and i got troll comments several
> times, despite my contributions of i've helped them in the past, i
> don't think in that deeply, i just let it go, my advice.. is when you
> don't like a reply.. just let it go.
>
> I won't say sorry if you feel offended, stop the drama. In fact i
> congratulate that you actually hhave learned something in this
> community (in this mailing list at least).
>
> Cheers.
>
> - --
> Angel Velsquez
> angvp @ irc.freenode.net
> Arch Linux Developer / Trusted User
> Linux Counter: #359909
> http://www.angvp.com
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> =+07S
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

The Ubuntu forums had a fairly active Arch Linux related subforum[3]
for a long time, a weird subforum for a distro forum to have wouldn't
you say?. While that is now no longer available, it certainly caused a
flow from Ubuntu to Arch Linux. Add to that the apparent wild growth
of "Arch Linux is awesome" reports on the web[2] and you have your
source of mass-interest as opposed to those looking specifically for
what Arch has to offer.

As a general remark: perhaps we are just suffering a marketing
problem. Many less-experienced Linux users or even first-time Linux
users finding their way to our forums or IRC channels seem to
misunderstand the KISS ("..tries to keep it simple") principle as
prominent on archlinux.org. People seem to think that this implies a
click-and-go-DE-prefab distro, something we certainly are not. I
certainly agree that attempting to portrait Arch as such is bad for
both the user and the distro itself.

And as for the IRC channels: these channels are advertised as
discussion channels[1]. Support may be found there but it's certainly
not the only thing going on in our channels, they are not comparable
to the "Newbie" subforum and shouldn't be treated as such.

[1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/IRC_Channels
[2] http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/linux-unix-bsd-documentations.html
[3] http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=321

-S
 
Old 01-04-2012, 03:14 PM
Leonid Isaev
 
Default

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 03:25:40 -0500
Jonathan Vasquez <jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:

> [...]
>
> Just because a person didn't go to
> medical school, doesn't mean that they can research and learn anything
> in the field of medicine. That logic is ridiculous, and as we have and
> will experience in our lives, applies towards other areas of life.
>
> Those are my worthless cents as well I suppose .
>
Please understand that what you are talking about is not research, but an
accumulation of information==noise from dumb bloggers.

What they teach in medschool is to use your brain, not the collective
knowledge. If you are so confident in your self-diagnosis, just talk to the
doctor and let him challenge your reasoning -- you'll see that even if your
conclusion was correct, this was a shear luck.

Wikipedia may be good for trivial things (diagnosing a running nose in your
terms) or reading about the comparison between email clients, but is
completely misleading in more sophisiticated problems. This is because people
who could actually improve it are way to busy / don't care to do so.

--
Leonid Isaev
GnuPG key ID: 164B5A6D
Key fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D
 
Old 01-04-2012, 03:18 PM
Don Juan
 
Default

On 01/04/2012 08:14 AM, Leonid Isaev wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 03:25:40 -0500
Jonathan Vasquez<jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:


[...]

Just because a person didn't go to
medical school, doesn't mean that they can research and learn anything
in the field of medicine. That logic is ridiculous, and as we have and
will experience in our lives, applies towards other areas of life.

Those are my worthless cents as well I suppose .


Please understand that what you are talking about is not research, but an
accumulation of information==noise from dumb bloggers.

What they teach in medschool is to use your brain, not the collective
knowledge. If you are so confident in your self-diagnosis, just talk to the
doctor and let him challenge your reasoning -- you'll see that even if your
conclusion was correct, this was a shear luck.

Wikipedia may be good for trivial things (diagnosing a running nose in your
terms) or reading about the comparison between email clients, but is
completely misleading in more sophisiticated problems. This is because people
who could actually improve it are way to busy / don't care to do so.

Any chance we can all drop this stuff now and maybe share some
advice/help on the OP question or other ones on the list currently, I
know I would happily take even some flaming now on my battery question :P
 

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