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Old 01-04-2012, 02:27 AM
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Default

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Jonathan Vasquez
<jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Oon-Ee Ng <ngoonee.talk@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Jonathan Vasquez
>> <jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I've been doing things to attract users to Arch. Whether they are
>>> newbs or not, because I want people to learn. As long as you have
>>> willingness and determination to learn, that is the important thing.
>>> The resources are out there, people just need to look, and I'm willing
>>> to add to those resources.
>>>
>>> You aren't adding anything beneficial by telling others that their
>>> comments are equal to troll statements, when this is clearly not true.
>>
>> Attracting users to Arch is not a stated goal, this has been repeated
>> many times in various fora. Arch is only for a certain type of users,
>> those who are willing and able to learn.
>>
>> I'm not knocking your effort, but a quick glance at those resources
>> you've provided indicate that you're trying to make it very easy to
>> get to using Arch, and I don't think that's beneficial for Arch or its
>> community. There are other distributions for 'easy-to-use', Arch
>> should not be that. Not because of any type of elitism, but because
>> Arch's niche is about control and simplicity, and making it
>> 'newbie-friendly' (whatever that means) would compromise that.
>>
>> Splitting the thread (sorry I use gmail, so it won't split for you
>> guys on mutt or whatever) to reduce the 'corruption' of original
>> thread, not that I think it'll make a difference though.
>
> You are misunderstanding my goals and what I've said.
>
> I said that I'm trying to help people find and use Arch. Whether they
> are expert users from other distros, or they are Noobies who are
> "willing to read documentation". If a person is a noob, that doesn't
> mean that they can't use Arch, they just have to be motivated
> individuals who are willing to seek and learn for themselves. I am
> facilitating resources, documentations, etc, to lower the barrier to
> entry, while at the same time giving information that is in the
> documentation, in a video form.
>
> So we completely agree, the point of Arch, and us, isn't to just go
> around and find noobies that don't want to learn for themselves but
> want others to do the work for them, but to find people that are
> willing to learn, seek for themselves, and contribute back to the
> community. This does not segregate "Noobs who want others to do things
> for them", "Noobs who are willing to be independent and learn for
> themselves", and "Expert users from other Distros who want to learn
> how to use Arch".
>
> --
> Jonathan Vasquez

BTW, If you watch the series I made today to help people who are
willing to learn come and try Arch, I've explicitly explained the Arch
goals, and who it is and isn't for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVx0xOO5tqg @ 1:30.

--
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Old 01-04-2012, 02:32 AM
Alex Liu
 
Default

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Oon-Ee Ng <ngoonee.talk@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arch's niche is about control and simplicity, and making it
> 'newbie-friendly' (whatever that means) would compromise that.

The 'whatever that means' part is, I think, the important aspect here.
What does it mean? Is newbie-friendliness providing a user with a
graphical user interface by default and an easy-to-use installer like
Ubuntu does? Many people seem to think so, because Ubuntu is commonly
called a 'distribution for beginners', but actually I disagree.

In fact, I think Arch is very newbie-friendly, if not the most
newbie-friendly distro out there. And that's because of the huge wiki
and the excellent documentation you get. Ubuntu et. al. might be
easier to use for people who switched from Windows, but that's just
because they're used to GUI and the 'out of the box' experience;
however, I don't think that's what newbie-friendliness is all about.
I mean, even someone who has never in his life used any Form of
GNU/Linux or Unix before can install Arch and make it work by reading
the wiki and the documentation -- so that is, in my opinion, very
newbie-friendly. The same is true for, for example, Gentoo, which is
commonly called a very hard to setup distro. I remember doing it ten
years ago with little to no Linux experience and it worked, just by
walking step by step through the instructions.

Maybe Arch is not for everyone (I agree), but I don't think it has
anything to do with being a newbie or not, but with being willing to
learn, read the docs, etc.
 
Old 01-04-2012, 02:34 AM
Don Juan
 
Default

On 01/03/2012 07:25 PM, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Oon-Ee Ng<ngoonee.talk@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Jonathan Vasquez
<jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:

I've been doing things to attract users to Arch. Whether they are
newbs or not, because I want people to learn. As long as you have
willingness and determination to learn, that is the important thing.
The resources are out there, people just need to look, and I'm willing
to add to those resources.

You aren't adding anything beneficial by telling others that their
comments are equal to troll statements, when this is clearly not true.

Attracting users to Arch is not a stated goal, this has been repeated
many times in various fora. Arch is only for a certain type of users,
those who are willing and able to learn.

I'm not knocking your effort, but a quick glance at those resources
you've provided indicate that you're trying to make it very easy to
get to using Arch, and I don't think that's beneficial for Arch or its
community. There are other distributions for 'easy-to-use', Arch
should not be that. Not because of any type of elitism, but because
Arch's niche is about control and simplicity, and making it
'newbie-friendly' (whatever that means) would compromise that.

Splitting the thread (sorry I use gmail, so it won't split for you
guys on mutt or whatever) to reduce the 'corruption' of original
thread, not that I think it'll make a difference though.

You are misunderstanding my goals and what I've said.

I said that I'm trying to help people find and use Arch. Whether they
are expert users from other distros, or they are Noobies who are
"willing to read documentation". If a person is a noob, that doesn't
mean that they can't use Arch, they just have to be motivated
individuals who are willing to seek and learn for themselves. I am
facilitating resources, documentations, etc, to lower the barrier to
entry, while at the same time giving information that is in the
documentation, in a video form.

So we completely agree, the point of Arch, and us, isn't to just go
around and find noobies that don't want to learn for themselves but
want others to do the work for them, but to find people that are
willing to learn, seek for themselves, and contribute back to the
community. This does not segregate "Noobs who want others to do things
for them", "Noobs who are willing to be independent and learn for
themselves", and "Expert users from other Distros who want to learn
how to use Arch".

Me being one of these Arch n00bs what attracted to me was the RTFM type
of attitude before you ask something it should be about reading and
educating ones self first before asking questions. It took me a few days
to understand installing things properly and only posting one question
to these boards about a miss understanding I had. Which I though the
responses I got were great and quickly made me grasp my failure to. I
learned a little more about the hooks statement that was made, but I do
have to agree that if others are not allowed to contribute they have the
same issues with a posting to the boards, then things may lag in finding
a common cause that may not be obvious on the one single system. Am I
way off thinking such a thing here?


I also still don't see how his comments were Troll like at all. Maybe
that's my n00b thinking in things. Elitism is one thing, but arrogance
is childish and VERY common on most message boards in the Linux world. I
value and understand Elitism, but throw in arrogance and its just a
pissing match being started in my opinion. Just my worthless .02


Cheers people its a New Year, don't forget that
 
Old 01-04-2012, 02:34 AM
Pham Bao Trung
 
Default

@Jonathan Vasquez

I must say that I totally support your point of view. I have seen some
TU/devs/geeky users showed bad temper, mocking on newb at #archlinux who
really came there to seek for help and wanted to switch to Arch. They just
made them go away rudely. Their point is that Arch is not for newb.

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Jonathan Vasquez <jvasquez1011@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Jonathan Vasquez
> <jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Oon-Ee Ng <ngoonee.talk@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Jonathan Vasquez
> >> <jvasquez1011@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> I've been doing things to attract users to Arch. Whether they are
> >>> newbs or not, because I want people to learn. As long as you have
> >>> willingness and determination to learn, that is the important thing.
> >>> The resources are out there, people just need to look, and I'm willing
> >>> to add to those resources.
> >>>
> >>> You aren't adding anything beneficial by telling others that their
> >>> comments are equal to troll statements, when this is clearly not true.
> >>
> >> Attracting users to Arch is not a stated goal, this has been repeated
> >> many times in various fora. Arch is only for a certain type of users,
> >> those who are willing and able to learn.
> >>
> >> I'm not knocking your effort, but a quick glance at those resources
> >> you've provided indicate that you're trying to make it very easy to
> >> get to using Arch, and I don't think that's beneficial for Arch or its
> >> community. There are other distributions for 'easy-to-use', Arch
> >> should not be that. Not because of any type of elitism, but because
> >> Arch's niche is about control and simplicity, and making it
> >> 'newbie-friendly' (whatever that means) would compromise that.
> >>
> >> Splitting the thread (sorry I use gmail, so it won't split for you
> >> guys on mutt or whatever) to reduce the 'corruption' of original
> >> thread, not that I think it'll make a difference though.
> >
> > You are misunderstanding my goals and what I've said.
> >
> > I said that I'm trying to help people find and use Arch. Whether they
> > are expert users from other distros, or they are Noobies who are
> > "willing to read documentation". If a person is a noob, that doesn't
> > mean that they can't use Arch, they just have to be motivated
> > individuals who are willing to seek and learn for themselves. I am
> > facilitating resources, documentations, etc, to lower the barrier to
> > entry, while at the same time giving information that is in the
> > documentation, in a video form.
> >
> > So we completely agree, the point of Arch, and us, isn't to just go
> > around and find noobies that don't want to learn for themselves but
> > want others to do the work for them, but to find people that are
> > willing to learn, seek for themselves, and contribute back to the
> > community. This does not segregate "Noobs who want others to do things
> > for them", "Noobs who are willing to be independent and learn for
> > themselves", and "Expert users from other Distros who want to learn
> > how to use Arch".
> >
> > --
> > Jonathan Vasquez
>
> BTW, If you watch the series I made today to help people who are
> willing to learn come and try Arch, I've explicitly explained the Arch
> goals, and who it is and isn't for.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVx0xOO5tqg @ 1:30.
>
> --
> Jonathan Vasquez
>



--
God loved the birds and invented trees. Man loved the birds and invented
cages.
~Jacques Deval

Probability does not exist.
~Bruno de Finetti

Brian: "Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, You
don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for your selves! You're
ALL individuals!"
~Monty Python, "The Life of Brian"
 
Old 01-04-2012, 04:22 AM
Bernardo Barros
 
Default

9 months is not that much time.. mplayer2-git works fine here.
 
Old 01-04-2012, 07:25 AM
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Default

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Pham Bao Trung
<pham.bao.trung@gmail.com> wrote:
> @Jonathan Vasquez
>
> I must say that I totally support your point of view. I have seen some
> TU/devs/geeky users showed bad temper, mocking on newb at #archlinux who
> really came there to seek for help and wanted to switch to Arch. They just
> made them go away rudely. Their point is that Arch is not for newb.
>

It's sad it happens, but it happens in every community and I have to
accept that. Just because there are a few bad raisins or arrogant
people in the community, doesn't mean that I should just give up on
the entire distro. All I'm saying is that the people in the distro
definitely have an obligation to maintain the high standards of
conduct (Etiquette) and Morality. So we can all treat each other with
dignity and respect, as fellow human beings, volunteers, contributors,
maintainers, and users.

@Don Juan

Don't forget that Elitism for the most part automatically involves
arrogance. If a person is very smart, they will tend to learn towards
being arrogant. It's not because a person wants to be arrogant though,
but because naturally, as people gain knowledge, they logically
believe that they are smarter than other people in society in that
specific area. A very logical thought. The only thing is that we have
to control and be mindful of our arrogance and elitism when dealing
with each other and others, because other people (even if they aren't
pro), doesn't mean that they don't have anything useful or correct to
say.

Think of Doctors. Sometimes when you feel sick, you go online and you
try to do your due diligence. Trying to find out what is wrong with
you (Diagnosing yourself), even though you aren't a doctor. But you
try to do it anyways because searching for information, and finding a
solution tends to be something that us hackers have haha (How can we
be using a distro as great as Arch, and not be used to searching for
information and solutions? :] ). Once you find the information, you
feel pretty good about it. Of course since you know you aren't a
doctor, you clearly know that you might be wrong, and keep an open
mind about your current solution, until you go see the doctor. Once
you go see the doctor and try to explain to them your research and
theories, some of the doctors respond very negative towards you,
basically down playing your intelligence because you didn't go to
eight years of medical school. Just because a person didn't go to
medical school, doesn't mean that they can research and learn anything
in the field of medicine. That logic is ridiculous, and as we have and
will experience in our lives, applies towards other areas of life.

Those are my worthless cents as well I suppose .


--
Jonathan Vasquez
 
Old 01-04-2012, 07:39 AM
Ross Hamblin
 
Default

On 04/01/12 21:25, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

>
> Those are my worthless cents as well I suppose .
>
Not so worthless I think. Is good to discuss this stuff in the open.
 
Old 01-04-2012, 08:07 AM
Arch Website Notification
 
Default

=== Signoff report for [community-testing] ===
https://www.archlinux.org/packages/signoffs/

There are currently:
* 0 new packages in last 24 hours
* 0 known bad packages
* 0 packages not accepting signoffs
* 2 fully signed off packages
* 12 packages missing signoffs
* 5 packages older than 14 days

(Note: the word 'package' as used here refers to packages as grouped by
pkgbase, architecture, and repository; e.g., one PKGBUILD produces one
package per architecture, even if it is a split package.)



== Incomplete signoffs for [community] (10 total) ==

* fpc-src-2.6.0-1 (any)
0/2 signoffs
* expac-0.07-1 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* fpc-2.6.0-1 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* gpac-3824-1 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* lazarus-0.9.30.2-2 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* packagekit-0.6.19-3 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* fpc-2.6.0-1 (x86_64)
0/2 signoffs
* gpac-3824-1 (x86_64)
0/2 signoffs
* lazarus-0.9.30.2-2 (x86_64)
0/2 signoffs
* packagekit-0.6.19-3 (x86_64)
1/2 signoffs

== Incomplete signoffs for [unknown] (2 total) ==

* percona-server-5.5.18_rel23.0-1 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* percona-server-5.5.18_rel23.0-1 (x86_64)
1/2 signoffs


== Completed signoffs (2 total) ==

* pacman-contrib-4.0.1-1 (any)
* expac-0.07-1 (x86_64)


== All packages in [community-testing] for more than 14 days (5 total) ==

* expac-0.07-1 (i686), since 2011-10-13
* expac-0.07-1 (x86_64), since 2011-10-13
* pacman-contrib-4.0.1-1 (any), since 2011-11-25
* packagekit-0.6.19-3 (i686), since 2011-11-30
* packagekit-0.6.19-3 (x86_64), since 2011-11-30


== Top five in signoffs in last 24 hours ==

1. thomas - 3 signoffs
2. bisson - 2 signoffs
3. dreisner - 1 signoffs
 
Old 01-04-2012, 08:07 AM
Arch Website Notification
 
Default

=== Signoff report for [testing] ===
https://www.archlinux.org/packages/signoffs/

There are currently:
* 10 new packages in last 24 hours
* 1 known bad package
* 0 packages not accepting signoffs
* 7 fully signed off packages
* 14 packages missing signoffs
* 5 packages older than 14 days

(Note: the word 'package' as used here refers to packages as grouped by
pkgbase, architecture, and repository; e.g., one PKGBUILD produces one
package per architecture, even if it is a split package.)


== New packages in [testing] in last 24 hours (10 total) ==

* cryptsetup-1.4.1-1 (i686)
* kernel26-lts-2.6.32.52-1 (i686)
* libpcap-1.2.1-1 (i686)
* linux-3.1.7-1 (i686)
* openvpn-2.2.2-1 (i686)
* cryptsetup-1.4.1-1 (x86_64)
* kernel26-lts-2.6.32.52-1 (x86_64)
* libpcap-1.2.1-1 (x86_64)
* linux-3.1.7-1 (x86_64)
* openvpn-2.2.2-1 (x86_64)


== Incomplete signoffs for [core] (12 total) ==

* cryptsetup-1.4.1-1 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* ed-1.6-1 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* inetutils-1.9-1 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* kernel26-lts-2.6.32.52-1 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* libpcap-1.2.1-1 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* linux-3.1.7-1 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* openvpn-2.2.2-1 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* ed-1.6-1 (x86_64)
0/2 signoffs
* inetutils-1.9-1 (x86_64)
1/2 signoffs
* kernel26-lts-2.6.32.52-1 (x86_64)
0/2 signoffs
* linux-3.1.7-1 (x86_64)
0/2 signoffs
* openvpn-2.2.2-1 (x86_64)
1/2 signoffs

== Incomplete signoffs for [extra] (2 total) ==

* pulseaudio-1.1-2 (i686)
0/2 signoffs
* pulseaudio-1.1-2 (x86_64)
1/2 signoffs


== Completed signoffs (7 total) ==

* pacman-4.0.1-1 (i686)
* cryptsetup-1.4.1-1 (x86_64)
* libpcap-1.2.1-1 (x86_64)
* pacman-4.0.1-1 (x86_64)
* namcap-3.2.1-1 (any)
* pyalpm-0.5.3-1 (i686)
* pyalpm-0.5.3-1 (x86_64)


== All packages in [testing] for more than 14 days (5 total) ==

* pyalpm-0.5.3-1 (i686), since 2011-10-15
* pyalpm-0.5.3-1 (x86_64), since 2011-10-15
* namcap-3.2.1-1 (any), since 2011-10-20
* pacman-4.0.1-1 (i686), since 2011-11-21
* pacman-4.0.1-1 (x86_64), since 2011-11-21


== Top five in signoffs in last 24 hours ==

1. thomas - 3 signoffs
2. bisson - 2 signoffs
3. dreisner - 1 signoffs
 
Old 01-04-2012, 09:49 AM
Keits
 
Default

On 11:21 Wed 04 Jan , Oon-Ee Ng wrote:
> Splitting the thread (sorry I use gmail, so it won't split for you
> guys on mutt or whatever)...

Nah, it's fine for mutt.
 

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