FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 05-20-2008, 04:43 AM
Mario Vukelic
 
Default

On Mon, 2008-05-19 at 21:46 -0300, Derek Broughton wrote:
> I'd be happier if it wasn't even possible to
> configure most servers with a text editor.

????


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 05-20-2008, 08:38 AM
"Dotan Cohen"
 
Default

2008/5/20 Mike Bird <mgb-ubuntu@yosemite.net>:
> On Mon May 19 2008 14:45:38 Dotan Cohen wrote:
>> 2008/5/19 Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>:
>> > Configuration
>> > should always be possible through a question/answer system, rather than
>> > hand-editing, because even the most experienced users make mistakes when
>> > hand-editing, while a GUI tool should always prevent syntactic errors.
>>
>> I very much disagree with you on this one. Configuration should be
>> unambiguous and easy to edit. What kind of GUI config would you use
>> when you ssh into your server? Even on my desktop, I try to use the
>> cli for configuration as much as possible. Other than kcontrol, I
>> haven't used a gui configuration tool since at least Ubuntu 7.04.
>
> I think the key is in the words "should" and "possible".
>
> Believe it or not, some silly routers cannot be configured remotely
> without a web connection. Some kinds of problems, which can be fixed
> on a Cisco via a telnet chain, require rolling an engineer to the
> colo for silly routers. Let's not make that mistake with Ubuntu.
>
> Configs MUST always be readily understandable and modifiable by
> both humans-with-texteditors and programs. Simple text config
> files and maybe XML are acceptable; Windoze registry is not.
>
> Derek's point is that it SHOULD also be possible to edit configs
> via a question/answer system with syntactic and consistency checks.
>

I agree that a GUI interface _in_addition_to_ a text-based interface
would be ideal. However, if it's one or the other, I firmly believe
that text-based is preferable.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 05-20-2008, 08:44 AM
"Dotan Cohen"
 
Default

2008/5/20 Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>:
> Well, it doesn't strictly need to be GUI, but it has to be a question/answer
> interface - anything that requires you to hand edit is a disaster waiting
> to happen (particularly if it's something like SSH where a misconfiguration
> guarantees you're locked out of your system until you can get physical
> access).

This is a good point. There a lots of applications configurable this
way, and I very much like them. This is a linear approach: you finish
with one question, move on to the next, answer another,... the user
cannot forget a step and finish the process.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 05-20-2008, 12:47 PM
Avi Greenbury
 
Default

On Mon, 19 May 2008 21:46:53 -0300
Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:

> Mike Bird wrote:
>
> > Configs MUST always be readily understandable and modifiable by
> > both humans-with-texteditors and programs. Simple text config
> > files and maybe XML are acceptable; Windoze registry is not.
> >
> > Derek's point is that it SHOULD also be possible to edit configs
> > via a question/answer system with syntactic and consistency checks.
>
> No, actually it isn't. I'd be happier if it wasn't even possible to
> configure most servers with a text editor.

Would that include an X11 server?

Or a web server to which one has no physical access?

--
Avi Greenbury

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 05-20-2008, 12:50 PM
Avi Greenbury
 
Default

On Tue, 20 May 2008 11:44:22 +0300
"Dotan Cohen" <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a good point. There a lots of applications configurable this
> way, and I very much like them. This is a linear approach: you finish
> with one question, move on to the next, answer another,... the user
> cannot forget a step and finish the process.

That's fine, until I want to change only the answer to the penultimate question.

That kind of interface should be available. It should _never_ be the *only* interface.

--
Avi Greenbury

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 05-20-2008, 01:49 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default

Steve Lamb wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> No, actually it isn't. I'd be happier if it wasn't even possible to
>> configure most servers with a text editor. I don't trust people,
>> especially administrators who think they know everything. I particularly
>> don't trust people to hand edit my ssh config.
>
> You don't trust people, especially not sysadmins... but you trust
> programmers. Ok then. Ker-plonk.
>

Don't be a moron. Of _course_ we trust programmers. We trust them all the
time, or we wouldn't even be using this OS. We trust Open Source
programmers even more because we can audit their code. Anybody who thinks
it's safer to edit a config file by hand than with a GUI isn't on my hiring
list. There's a very good reason that /etc/sudoers contains this warning:

# This file MUST be edited with the 'visudo' command as root.

It's not a GUI (though actually, it could be) but it forces verification of
the file before actually replacing the old file.

<plonk> back at you.
--
derek


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 05-20-2008, 01:51 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default

Mike Bird wrote:

> On Mon May 19 2008 17:46:53 Derek Broughton wrote:
>> No, actually it isn't. I'd be happier if it wasn't even possible to
>> configure most servers with a text editor. I don't trust people,
>> especially administrators who think they know everything. I particularly
>> don't trust people to hand edit my ssh config.
>
> Your email makes no sense. Did you hand edit it? Please only
> send emails generated by a registered q-and-a-4-email script.

Of course I didn't hand edit it. I used a GUI mail (actually news program
that enforced proper syntax.

And yes, it asked me questions: who do I want to send it to? What's your
own address? What's the subject? What's the message.
--
derek


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 05-20-2008, 01:56 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default

Avi Greenbury wrote:

> On Mon, 19 May 2008 21:46:53 -0300
> Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
>> Mike Bird wrote:
>>
>> > Configs MUST always be readily understandable and modifiable by
>> > both humans-with-texteditors and programs. Simple text config
>> > files and maybe XML are acceptable; Windoze registry is not.
>> >
>> > Derek's point is that it SHOULD also be possible to edit configs
>> > via a question/answer system with syntactic and consistency checks.
>>
>> No, actually it isn't. I'd be happier if it wasn't even possible to
>> configure most servers with a text editor.
>
> Would that include an X11 server?

Especially. That's apparently Ubuntu and Xorg's aim (at least to prevent
the necessity of editing - it's *nix, so you can't actually _prevent_
someone editing the files). Haven't you noticed that we get a smaller
percentage of emails on these lists these days about X configuration than
we used to? That's because people are needing to do much less hand editing
(back in the Corel Linux days, when I started, I spent, literally, weeks
getting X configured properly - I haven't touched my xorg.conf file in
_years_, now - and never for this machine).
>
> Or a web server to which one has no physical access?

Again, yes. Apache is less of a problem than some servers, in that I can
hand edit the configs and test them before restarting Apache, but I'd be a
lot happier with a tool that didn't let me write invalid config files in
the first place.
--
derek


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 05-20-2008, 01:59 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default

Avi Greenbury wrote:

> On Tue, 20 May 2008 11:44:22 +0300
> "Dotan Cohen" <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is a good point. There a lots of applications configurable this
>> way, and I very much like them. This is a linear approach: you finish
>> with one question, move on to the next, answer another,... the user
>> cannot forget a step and finish the process.
>
> That's fine, until I want to change only the answer to the penultimate
> question.

Why should that be a problem? A good interface will let you get there
simply, without trashing all the other answers. You're complaining that
the interfaces you've used are lacking, rather than presenting an argument
that they're intrinsically wrong.
>
> That kind of interface should be available. It should _never_ be the
> *only* interface.

In an ideal world, it _should_ be the only interface. In an ideal
interface, all questions are asked, all answers are validated, and only
valid configurations are saved. There is probably no such thing as an
ideal interface, but that's the only reason why we need to be able to edit
configs by hand.
--
derek


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 05-20-2008, 02:02 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default

Mario Vukelic wrote:

> On Mon, 2008-05-19 at 21:43 -0300, Derek Broughton wrote:
>> it has to be a question/answer interface
>
> Ton configure something complex like a serious postfix setup through a
> questions and answer system? I cannot imagine that.

I can. There really aren't that many questions that need to be answered.
I've never seriously used postfix, but I have administered Exim, and I have
seen Webmin modules for it. They were _deficient_ but not intrinsically
wrong.
--
derek


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 12:03 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org