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Old 05-19-2008, 11:36 PM
Pastor JW
 
Default

On Monday 19 May 2008 01:20:07 pm Derek Broughton wrote:
> Dotan Cohen wrote:
> > 2008/5/12 Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>:
> >> Oh sure - and you could get yourself a week of flames for even bringing
> >> up the subject of Webmin...
> >
> > You'd get flamed for using it, but the community would help you
> > configure anything that you need, the right way. They'd rather teach
> > you to fish than give you a fish. That's why I use Debian on the
> > desktop. I use Ubuntu on the laptop with the problematic hardware,
> > however.
>
> That's _exactly_ the Debian problem. The "right" way is a matter of
> opinion. While Webmin modules often have problems, the problem is not
> _webmin_ - it's the individual modules. Personally (and list members
> should by now be getting tired of hearing me say this) I believe that GUI
> admin tools are _always_ the right way to do configuration, and this is
> pretty much anathema to many of the hardline debian geeks. Configuration
> should always be possible through a question/answer system, rather than
> hand-editing, because even the most experienced users make mistakes when
> hand-editing, while a GUI tool should always prevent syntactic errors.

I have to agree. Ironically, I always get people who complain about how many
clicks it takes to do things with a GUI, Question here, ...have they NEVER
counted the hundreds of key clicks it takes someone to do the same job via
CLI and then the extra ones it always takes because of a mis-spelled or
mis-applied command line or a forgotten argument. Even when they type out
how to do it so you can cut and paste, they forget to add to the count the 27
extra key clicks each of those printed out commands takes!

IE ..."(all the above on one line)"



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Old 05-20-2008, 12:43 AM
Derek Broughton
 
Default

Dotan Cohen wrote:

> 2008/5/19 Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>:
>> Configuration
>> should always be possible through a question/answer system, rather than
>> hand-editing, because even the most experienced users make mistakes when
>> hand-editing, while a GUI tool should always prevent syntactic errors.
>
> I very much disagree with you on this one. Configuration should be
> unambiguous and easy to edit. What kind of GUI config would you use
> when you ssh into your server? Even on my desktop, I try to use the
> cli for configuration as much as possible. Other than kcontrol, I
> haven't used a gui configuration tool since at least Ubuntu 7.04.

Well, it doesn't strictly need to be GUI, but it has to be a question/answer
interface - anything that requires you to hand edit is a disaster waiting
to happen (particularly if it's something like SSH where a misconfiguration
guarantees you're locked out of your system until you can get physical
access).
--
derek


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Old 05-20-2008, 12:46 AM
Derek Broughton
 
Default

Mike Bird wrote:

> Configs MUST always be readily understandable and modifiable by
> both humans-with-texteditors and programs. Simple text config
> files and maybe XML are acceptable; Windoze registry is not.
>
> Derek's point is that it SHOULD also be possible to edit configs
> via a question/answer system with syntactic and consistency checks.

No, actually it isn't. I'd be happier if it wasn't even possible to
configure most servers with a text editor. I don't trust people,
especially administrators who think they know everything. I particularly
don't trust people to hand edit my ssh config.

imo, Windows registry would be fine - if it actually validated what you
entered.
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Old 05-20-2008, 01:17 AM
Steve Lamb
 
Default

Derek Broughton wrote:
> No, actually it isn't. I'd be happier if it wasn't even possible to
> configure most servers with a text editor. I don't trust people,
> especially administrators who think they know everything. I particularly
> don't trust people to hand edit my ssh config.

You don't trust people, especially not sysadmins... but you trust
programmers. Ok then. Ker-plonk.

--
Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do...
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

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Old 05-20-2008, 01:22 AM
Steve Lamb
 
Default

Pastor JW wrote:
> I have to agree. Ironically, I always get people who complain about how many
> clicks it takes to do things with a GUI, Question here, ...have they NEVER
> counted the hundreds of key clicks it takes someone to do the same job via
> CLI and then the extra ones it always takes because of a mis-spelled or
> mis-applied command line or a forgotten argument.

Let me know when I can buffer mouse clicks. The power in the CLI is
that you don't need to see the screen to enter information when you know
what's coming up. How much does it take to configure something in, say, exim?

vim /etc/ex<tab>con<tab>acl<tab>30<tab>
/etc/init.d/exim<tab> restart

I can type that before most machines, especially over a remote connection,
will pull up the first level. Heck, there's more often more typing just to
get the GUI up to a point where I can start configuring things; esp. if you
add in the address, username, password and so on.

I'm not saying that CLIs are the end-all-be-all, nor that GUIs don't have
their place. I believe that for certain things GUI configuration is desired.
Just as I believe that for a great many things CLI configuration is desired.

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PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do...
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Old 05-20-2008, 01:29 AM
Steve Lamb
 
Default

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Well, it doesn't strictly need to be GUI, but it has to be a question/answer
> interface - anything that requires you to hand edit is a disaster waiting
> to happen (particularly if it's something like SSH where a misconfiguration
> guarantees you're locked out of your system until you can get physical
> access).

I call FUD.

{grey@mania:~} ssh teleute
Enter passphrase for key '/home/grey/.ssh/identity':

You have mail.
Last login: Sun May 18 01:17:58 2008 from mania
{grey@teleute:~} root
Password:
root@teleute:~# /etc/init.d/ssh stop
Stopping OpenBSD Secure Shell server: sshd.
root@teleute:~# echo look, I'm still here!
quote> '
look, Im still here!

Meanwhile in another window:

grey@mania:~} ssh teleute
ssh: connect to host teleute port 22: Connection refused

If anyone blows their SSH configuration and locks themselves out it is
because they didn't test it prior to logging out. That is their fault, not SSH's.

In fact webmin is, if anything, more culpable to the problem you
mistakenly think happens with SSH since HTTP is not a stream protocol. Each
request is evaluated separately so if you screw with your settings and manage
to munge webmin it happens immediately with no testing.

In fact the only time I have ever sweated my connection to my remote
server was when I was installing knockd and integrating it into shorewall.
Screw up your firewall settings and drop packets from your current host you're
toasted faster than even messing up transactional connections. For the
record, I screwed the pooch. Good thing my hosting company, 3000 miles away,
has webmin! No, wait, no, I ripped that out right away. Good thing I rented
a VM with an ssh connection directly to the console. And before that when I
rented a real server I still have an ssh pipe directly to the console.

FUD, it's not just for Microsoft any more.

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PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do...
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Old 05-20-2008, 01:32 AM
Mike Bird
 
Default

On Mon May 19 2008 17:46:53 Derek Broughton wrote:
> No, actually it isn't. I'd be happier if it wasn't even possible to
> configure most servers with a text editor. I don't trust people,
> especially administrators who think they know everything. I particularly
> don't trust people to hand edit my ssh config.

Your email makes no sense. Did you hand edit it? Please only
send emails generated by a registered q-and-a-4-email script.

--Mike Bird

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Old 05-20-2008, 03:09 AM
Jesse Keating
 
Default

I sent this over to the jpackage discussion list after a lengthy talk on
IRC with a few Fedora and jpackage folks. So far there hasn't been any
response other than some clarification of the rpm level drawback of
using Provides. I thought I would toss it over here for some
consideration on our side of things.

-------- Forwarded Message --------
From: Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com>
Reply-To: Discussion about JPackage project <jpackage-discuss@zarb.org>
To: Discussion about JPackage project <jpackage-discuss@zarb.org>
Subject: [JPackage-discuss] Moving jpp# to Provides:
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 16:05:01 -0400

In trying to find a compromise for jpackage packages in Fedora, we asked
somebody from the jpackage side to provide a list of technical reasons
why 'jpp#' needed to continue to be in the Release: string of an rpm.

Deepak provided us with
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DeepakBhole/ReasonsForKeepingJPP

In reviewing this and in the various arguments that have happened over
the past few years surrounding the jpp vendor tag, I think I've struck
upon something that just may work, at least work to the best of the
requirements that I know of.

If we simply move the 'jpp#' part of the release string to a Provides:
line in the spec file, here is what happens:

Exclusion of jpp* from a specific repo can still be done, since excludes
work upon Provides too. It can be even more precise since currently a
package with the name of foolalajpp4me would trigger the excludes and
cause problems.

Deploying an entire jpackage stack is still possible. This is actually
better accomplished at the yum repo level. yum --disablerepo=*
--enablerepo=jpackage install * <-- that will install everything from
jpackage, which I am understanding is the goal of this data point.

JPackage is still given credit as the package provides jpp, has the jpp
changelogs, can have # comments regarding the jpackage interaction,
summary, description, etc...

Grouping by jpp is still possible. yum --disablerepo=* --provides jpp*

----

A current drawback to using jpp# is that the '#' can change, so using
rpm itself becomes more tricky as rpm doesn't accept globs. That said,
instead of doing jpp# you could just do 'jpp' and then rpm would be able
to do things like:

rpm -q --whatprovides jpp

and well, whatever you want to do with that output.

However if you wanted to keep the versioning information, and still
retain the ability to query on 'jpp', you could do:

Provides: jpp = #

or =< if that fills your needs. Since rpm does handle versioning in
Provides you can still do rpm -q --whatprovides jpp and that will work.

Anyway I'm drifting a bit here, but I did want to start a conversation
about the feasibility of using Provides to accomplish the listed goals
rather than added characters in the release string.


I should also note that for best results, this Provides should
be /added/ at both the jpackage and Fedora level. Removal of the jpp#
information from release string technically only needs to be done at the
Fedora level, it could remain at the jpackage level if so desired. The
existence of "jpp#" can easily be controlled by a %{_dist} like tag in
the release string. In jpackage build roots that value can expand to
'jpp#' and in Fedora buildroots that value would expand to '.fc#'.
Since the other version-release parts should be used for version
comparison it shouldn't much matter if jpp# is on the jpackage side
and .fc# is on the Fedora side.

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Fedora -- Freedom˛ is a feature!
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:40 AM
Mario Vukelic
 
Default

On Mon, 2008-05-19 at 21:43 -0300, Derek Broughton wrote:
> (particularly if it's something like SSH where a misconfiguration
> guarantees you're locked out of your system until you can get physical
> access).

Existing SSH connections remain up, so you can log int via SSH, edit,
then try to establish a new connection, and drop the old one only when
you are sure the new config works.


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Old 05-20-2008, 04:42 AM
Mario Vukelic
 
Default

On Mon, 2008-05-19 at 21:43 -0300, Derek Broughton wrote:
> it has to be a question/answer interface

Ton configure something complex like a serious postfix setup through a
questions and answer system? I cannot imagine that.


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