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Old 11-18-2009, 03:18 PM
Chris Lumens
 
Default

> Ah, but I'm not suggesting doing 2 different composes, just don't do
> mediacheck by default at all, and have a separate entry in the syslinux menu
> for mediacheck so people can still easily do it.

Problem is that media check does actually catch problems, and not
running it means we're going to get a lot more bugs about completely
random i/o errors caused by bad media. I'd be really opposed to
disabling it by default.

- Chris

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Old 11-18-2009, 03:23 PM
Peter Jones
 
Default

On 11/18/2009 11:12 AM, Hans de Goede wrote:

Hi,

On 11/18/2009 04:53 PM, Peter Jones wrote:

On 11/18/2009 06:04 AM, Hans de Goede wrote:

Hi,

Jesse thanks for the forward, Jason thanks for the input,
see my comments below.

On 11/18/2009 05:28 AM, Jesse Keating wrote:

-------- Forwarded Message --------
From: Jason D. Clinton<me@jasonclinton.com>
Reply-to: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop
<fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com>
To: fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com
Subject: Fedora 12 Installer Experience
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:21:07 -0600

Originally sent this to mccann for private review but jrb and halfline
asked that I send it here. I don't mean to offend anyone; mccann asked
that I document my experience -- I'm coming from Debian Sid/Exp. so I
don't have a horse the desktop race.
---

I'm writing this from my phone while I wait for the install to
finish. I
will send another mail documenting first boot experience.

The notes are with a newbie in-mind and only the notable hang-ups; the
experience is, overall, good.

Pre-install: no reason given for a media test and no time estimate
before agreeing.



Hmm, yes I had a question about this on #anacando too, maybe we should
let media check always default to off, this esp. seems to make sense
for the pressed (not burned) dvd's we are handing out at conferences.

We could then add a separate syslinux.cfg entry which passes in
the media check option, so that people who burn themselves can still
use this without needing to resort to the syslinux cmdline


AIUI, the problem with doing this (and there is a better way, but it has
the same issue) is that you're back to making two sets of ISO images -
one for ftp and one for "burned" releases.

I don't imagine rel-eng is real keen on going back to doing this.



Ah, but I'm not suggesting doing 2 different composes, just don't do
mediacheck by default at all, and have a separate entry in the syslinux
menu for mediacheck so people can still easily do it.


I'm really not okay with that.

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Old 11-18-2009, 03:31 PM
Hans de Goede
 
Default

Hi,

On 11/18/2009 05:18 PM, Chris Lumens wrote:

Ah, but I'm not suggesting doing 2 different composes, just don't do
mediacheck by default at all, and have a separate entry in the syslinux menu
for mediacheck so people can still easily do it.


Problem is that media check does actually catch problems, and not
running it means we're going to get a lot more bugs about completely
random i/o errors caused by bad media. I'd be really opposed to
disabling it by default.



Well we are not doing it be default atm either, we are asking by default and
most people I know press no, they might press yes the first time they
ever install Fedora, but once they know what it is and how long it takes,
they press no.

So IMHO for the sake if userfriendlyness, we should not ask by default.

Note that giving it a separate menu entry in the syslinux menu pretty much
comes down to asking it too, but at a place where we are already giving
users a multiple choice anyways, so in essence we will still be removing
one question from the default install path.

Regards,

Hans

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Old 11-18-2009, 03:32 PM
Hans de Goede
 
Default

On 11/18/2009 05:23 PM, Peter Jones wrote:

On 11/18/2009 11:12 AM, Hans de Goede wrote:

Hi,

On 11/18/2009 04:53 PM, Peter Jones wrote:

On 11/18/2009 06:04 AM, Hans de Goede wrote:

Hi,

Jesse thanks for the forward, Jason thanks for the input,
see my comments below.

On 11/18/2009 05:28 AM, Jesse Keating wrote:

-------- Forwarded Message --------
From: Jason D. Clinton<me@jasonclinton.com>
Reply-to: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop
<fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com>
To: fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com
Subject: Fedora 12 Installer Experience
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:21:07 -0600

Originally sent this to mccann for private review but jrb and halfline
asked that I send it here. I don't mean to offend anyone; mccann asked
that I document my experience -- I'm coming from Debian Sid/Exp. so I
don't have a horse the desktop race.
---

I'm writing this from my phone while I wait for the install to
finish. I
will send another mail documenting first boot experience.

The notes are with a newbie in-mind and only the notable hang-ups; the
experience is, overall, good.

Pre-install: no reason given for a media test and no time estimate
before agreeing.



Hmm, yes I had a question about this on #anacando too, maybe we should
let media check always default to off, this esp. seems to make sense
for the pressed (not burned) dvd's we are handing out at conferences.

We could then add a separate syslinux.cfg entry which passes in
the media check option, so that people who burn themselves can still
use this without needing to resort to the syslinux cmdline


AIUI, the problem with doing this (and there is a better way, but it has
the same issue) is that you're back to making two sets of ISO images -
one for ftp and one for "burned" releases.

I don't imagine rel-eng is real keen on going back to doing this.



Ah, but I'm not suggesting doing 2 different composes, just don't do
mediacheck by default at all, and have a separate entry in the syslinux
menu for mediacheck so people can still easily do it.


I'm really not okay with that.



some motivation for that would be helpful, also see my reply to clumens
concerns.

Regards,

Hans

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Old 11-18-2009, 03:49 PM
Chris Lumens
 
Default

> Well we are not doing it be default atm either, we are asking by default and
> most people I know press no, they might press yes the first time they
> ever install Fedora, but once they know what it is and how long it takes,
> they press no.

We explain what it does, we offer a yes/no choice, and we highlight the
yes button. This is the default. Moving over to no takes user
interaction, therefore not the default.

> Note that giving it a separate menu entry in the syslinux menu pretty much
> comes down to asking it too, but at a place where we are already giving
> users a multiple choice anyways, so in essence we will still be removing
> one question from the default install path.

The syslinux menu is really not a very good place for this as it puts it
even more out of the way for the user. I want it more in the user's
face where they will consider strongly whether or not they should be
running media check. Moving the decision point out of anaconda into the
syslinux menu means fewer people are going to do it (really - how many
people actually do anything at the syslinux menu besides just hitting
enter?) and will result in more NOTABUGs for us to have to deal with.

- Chris

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Old 11-18-2009, 03:49 PM
Peter Jones
 
Default

On 11/18/2009 11:32 AM, Hans de Goede wrote:

>>> Ah, but I'm not suggesting doing 2 different composes, just don't do
>>> mediacheck by default at all, and have a separate entry in the syslinux
>>> menu for mediacheck so people can still easily do it.
>>
>> I'm really not okay with that.
>>
>
> some motivation for that would be helpful, also see my reply to clumens
> concerns.

What we're doing now is, effectively, recommending and defaulting to checking.
What you're suggesting is *hiding* it. We want users to check every disc,
every time. It causes them to file fewer bugs.

--
Peter

If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.
-- Einstein

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Old 11-18-2009, 04:02 PM
cornel panceac
 
Default

What we're doing now is, effectively, recommending and defaulting to checking.

What you're suggesting is *hiding* it. *We want users to check every disc,

every time. *It causes them to file fewer bugs.

you must also care of what users want. i see no reason to check the media if everything works fine. and, imho, "everything works fine" should be the default. it is also true that lately, more and more, the users who want to see it working have to pass various options to grub, like selinux=0 and nomodeset. i believe that the media check should be suggested when something goes wrong, and not otherwise.


not many users report bugs and forcing media check on all users will not help with that. maybe a message at grub like "before reporting any bugs please choose 'media check' in the grub menu" will be more helpful.


ps
yes, forcing media check will reduce a little bit the number of NOTAbugs, but the price on fedora user base may be huge.

--
Linux counter #213090

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Old 11-18-2009, 04:07 PM
Bryan J Smith
 
Default

On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 11:18 -0500, Chris Lumens wrote:
> Problem is that media check does actually catch problems, and not
> running it means we're going to get a lot more bugs about completely
> random i/o errors caused by bad media. I'd be really opposed to
> disabling it by default.

I have to second this. For noobs, I like the media test default ...
period. I would argue that 9 out of 10 install issues at InstallFests
have been errors in the media, disc incompatibility between the drive
firmware that recorded it from the drive reading it, etc...

I've long tracked (nearly 15 years now) the quirks and differences
between Matsushita, Pioneer and Sony/Philips firmware. It's bad
enough in the differences between -R technologies, but it gets worse
when you start looking at non-"record-like" technologies like -RW, +RW
and +R (which is really +RW). I even half-seriously call Sony/Philips
CD-RW "CAV" re-write as CD+RW for many reasons (including what it does
to a CD-RW "CLV" disc when someone doesn't check).

Even if a disc is recorded and tested in one drive and works in other
drives of the same firmware, there can be differences in another. Even
LG's SuperMulti firmware based on multiple licenses, which does
everything and could be considered one of the most universally
compatible, can result in discs that some drives and their firmwares
just don't like.

If you're an expert, you use a network install anyway. I have a PCMCIA
card I throw into my T60 as eth1 that brings up a DHCP and services TFTP
and Apache only when it exists, precisely for network booting all sorts
of releases.


--
Bryan J Smith Senior Consultant Red Hat, Inc
Professional Consulting http://www.redhat.com/consulting
mailto:bjs@redhat.com +1 (407) 489-7013 (Mobile)
mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org (Blackberry/Red Hat-External)
--------------------------------------------------------
You already know Red Hat as the entity dedicated to 100%
no-IP-strings-attached, community software development.
But do you know where CIOs rate Red Hat versus other
software and services firms for their own, direct needs,
year after year? http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/


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Old 11-18-2009, 04:23 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default

On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 19:02 +0200, cornel panceac wrote:
> if everything works fine. and, imho, "everything works fine" should be the
> default. it is also true that lately, more and more, the users who want to
> see it working have to pass various options to grub, like selinux=0 and
> nomodeset. i believe that the media check should be suggested when something
> goes wrong, and not otherwise.

The problem is that 'when something goes wrong' can often be in the
middle of your upgrade and now your system is completely trashed.

--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom˛ is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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Old 11-18-2009, 05:11 PM
"Richard.Johnson"
 
Default

On Nov 18, 2009, at 11:31 AM, Hans de Goede wrote:


Hi,

On 11/18/2009 05:18 PM, Chris Lumens wrote:

Ah, but I'm not suggesting doing 2 different composes, just don't do
mediacheck by default at all, and have a separate entry in the
syslinux menu

for mediacheck so people can still easily do it.


Problem is that media check does actually catch problems, and not
running it means we're going to get a lot more bugs about completely
random i/o errors caused by bad media. I'd be really opposed to
disabling it by default.



Well we are not doing it be default atm either, we are asking by
default and

most people I know press no, they might press yes the first time they
ever install Fedora, but once they know what it is and how long it
takes,

they press no.

So IMHO for the sake if userfriendlyness, we should not ask by
default.


That's certianly been my reaction! If you're starting a time-
consuming operation

without asking, please provide a way to bail out.

Perhaps:
- a [Cancel] button bail out of media check once its started
- ditto for hitting the [esc] key




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