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Old 04-12-2008, 02:43 AM
Ron Johnson
 
Default

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On 04/11/08 21:30, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Friday 11 April 2008 07:17:19 pm Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 04/11/08 21:01, Paul Johnson wrote:
>>> On Friday 11 April 2008 01:33:00 pm Damon L. Chesser wrote:
>>>> It does? News to me. Again, study your history, longest un-interrupted
>>>> economic growth in the history of the US.
>>> Reagan was still starring in movies or acting as the president of the
>>> labor union he was a member of during much of the boom of which you speak
>>> (1945-1975). Looking at all the GDP data for the US I could find poking
>>> around BEA's website, GDP grew slower post 1981. Total US exports
>>> levelled
>> Growth would have slowed no matter who was President, since it took
>> a generation for Europe and Asia to recover, and for the US to get
>> fat and complacent with our post-war economic dominance.
>
> That's very probably true. I was just stunned by the ignorance of the claim
> that the Reagan years were the best years this country ever had. Sadly, this
> isn't the first time I've heard this claim, as it appears to be the
> justification of current Republican economic policy...

Stagflation, Misery Index, Rust Belt, death of trust in American
cars, death of Big Steel, "death" of NY City all happened in the
1970s. As did Big Union jacking up wages to excessive levels, and
doing a shitty job of building "stuff".

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Old 04-12-2008, 03:18 AM
Steve Lamb
 
Default

Paul Johnson wrote:
> Eliminating all
> corporate tax breaks would be a good idea, as well: After World War II,
> corporations accounted for nearly 40% of US tax revenue, today it's less than
> 5%.

You are an idiot. Yes, corporate taxes are paid by corporations who pass
the the bill onto individuals. It was 0% before and its 0% now. Individuals
paid it then and individuals pay it now. You just want it back because it's a
secret tax on the individuals that you don't have to justify. 20% tax on the
poor? Way to go Paul!

As for everyone else why are we having this crap discussion AGAIN.
Seriously. Look up Paul's background in this group. Most successful troll
ever. Every 3 months he baits people into "debating" his socialist wet dream.


--
Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do...
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------
 
Old 04-12-2008, 03:43 AM
Mike Bird
 
Default

On Fri April 11 2008 20:18:33 Steve Lamb wrote:
> You are an idiot. Yes, corporate taxes are paid by corporations who
> pass the the bill onto individuals. It was 0% before and its 0% now.
> Individuals paid it then and individuals pay it now. You just want it back
> because it's a secret tax on the individuals that you don't have to
> justify. 20% tax on the poor? Way to go Paul!

You're mistaken Steve. Individuals pass on their tax costs to corporations
in the form of higher wage demands. Individual income tax should be zero.
Corporations should be taxed on their profits in order to pay for the
infrastucture and military necessary for corporations to conduct business
within the state.

--Mike Bird


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Old 04-12-2008, 03:52 AM
Steve Lamb
 
Default

Mike Bird wrote:
> You're mistaken Steve. Individuals pass on their tax costs to corporations
> in the form of higher wage demands. Individual income tax should be zero.
> Corporations should be taxed on their profits in order to pay for the
> infrastucture and military necessary for corporations to conduct business
> within the state.

I agree, individual income tax should be 0. You'll note that Paul does
not agree with that. But sorry, you are mistaken. We do not pass our tax
costs to corporations in the form of higher wage demands. I didn't say
workers. I didn't say consumers. I said individuals. Tell the unemployed
person or the person living on pension that they are "passing their tax costs
on to corporations" and see how fast you get laughed or yelled at. Tell the
shareholders of public corporations their tax burden is passed on to
corporations through higher wage demands. Yet you will find that higher cost
of goods through the pipeline will still have to be paid by those who earn no
"wage" and the stakeholders which front the money for businesses to, you know,
do business, get less because of lower return on investment.

Corporations don't pay taxes. Individuals do. Because at the end of the
day corporations are nothing more than a collection of individuals dealing
with individuals and managed by individuals. A corporate tax is just a way of
hiding the taxes off the individual's books.

--
Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do...
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------
 
Old 04-12-2008, 05:10 AM
Mark Allums
 
Default

Ron Johnson wrote:

If only Canada had a nice place to dump spent nuclear fuel the way China


France doesn't have problems with spent nuclear fuel, because they
use breeder reactors. We should, too.


The problems with waste are slowly being solved, even without breeders.
But you make a good point. However, I would prefer it if the
breeders were in the arid Southwest deserts, and not at Hanford.*


Mark Allums

* Actually, we aren't operating /any/ breeders at the moment, nor have
since the eighties, IIRC. We aren't even producing any plutonium right
now, we prefer to buy it from the Russians (which is okay with me, I
guess. Better in our power plants than in their nuclear weapons, I say.)



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Old 04-12-2008, 05:14 AM
Paul Johnson
 
Default

On Friday 11 April 2008 08:52:10 pm Steve Lamb wrote:
> Mike Bird wrote:
> > You're mistaken Steve. Individuals pass on their tax costs to
> > corporations in the form of higher wage demands. Individual income tax
> > should be zero. Corporations should be taxed on their profits in order to
> > pay for the infrastucture and military necessary for corporations to
> > conduct business within the state.
>
> I agree, individual income tax should be 0. You'll note that Paul does
> not agree with that. But sorry, you are mistaken. We do not pass our tax
> costs to corporations in the form of higher wage demands.

Sure we do. If employers know people are happy with what they're taking home
after taxes, and income tax went to 0, you can bet that employers are going
to cut wages by the difference in taxes to squeeze out the extra profit. And
in the case of publicly traded companies, it would be in the interest of
their shareholders to do so.

--
Paul Johnson
baloo@ursine.ca


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Old 04-12-2008, 05:16 AM
Paul Johnson
 
Default

On Friday 11 April 2008 10:10:22 pm Mark Allums wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
> >> If only Canada had a nice place to dump spent nuclear fuel the way China
> >
> > France doesn't have problems with spent nuclear fuel, because they
> > use breeder reactors. We should, too.
>
> The problems with waste are slowly being solved, even without breeders.
> But you make a good point. However, I would prefer it if the
> breeders were in the arid Southwest deserts, and not at Hanford.*

It's too bad that Trojan was built on unstable ground and falling apart before
it opened, to the point of being inspiration for the power plant in The
Simpsons... Engineering incompetence really doomed that plant before it
opened.

--
Paul Johnson
baloo@ursine.ca
 
Old 04-12-2008, 12:45 PM
Curt Howland
 
Default

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> On Friday 11 April 2008 10:10:22 pm Mark Allums wrote:
> > The problems with waste are slowly being solved, even without breeders.
> > * *But you make a good point. *However, I would prefer it if the
> > breeders were in the arid Southwest deserts, and not at Hanford.*

One of the "waste" problems is also caused by a lack of "recycling". American
reactors are forced to store their spent fuel, rather than have it
reprocessed into 95% new fuel and 5% waste.

The highly radioactive wastes decay quickly, so nuclear waste is turning out
not to be such a large problem as, well, "as we were told".

The really nasty sites, like Hanford, are government sites. Removing limited
liability might kill nuclear power, but I think it more likely that reactors
built will be built effectively and cleanly instead.

Great bumper sticker I saw 25 years ago:

Chappaquiddick: 1
Three Mile Island: 0


- --
Treason! http://blog.mises.org/archives/007926.asp

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Old 04-12-2008, 03:36 PM
Andrew Sackville-West
 
Default

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 08:18:33PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
...
>
> As for everyone else why are we having this crap discussion
AGAIN.

only a matter of time. real traffic is down, OT is up... flame wars a
comin'

A
 
Old 04-12-2008, 03:45 PM
Florian Kulzer
 
Default

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 08:36:26 -0700, Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 08:18:33PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
> ...
> >
> > As for everyone else why are we having this crap discussion
> > AGAIN.
>
> only a matter of time. real traffic is down, OT is up... flame wars a
> comin'

Is this the right room for an argument?

--
Regards, | http://users.icfo.es/Florian.Kulzer
Florian |


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