On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 12:38:20PM +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
>
> I think that's a fundamental part of what the feature process _should_
> be doing. The whole point of the feature process, as I see it, is about
> precisely the _planning_ you say we lack. Otherwise, we're just be

This is partly that kind of planning, but the planning I am referring to
is more about upstream planning integration within the existing
frameworks.

In this precise case, there was a single point of control, the bug
report, and there was some kind of planning regarding the inclusion in
fedora.

But in any case, most of the changes don't fall under the feature
process, because they are upstream changes, so I can't see how this
could be controlled in Fedora, if the package maintainers are not
willing to be controlled.

> throwing new stuff in willy-nilly and just writing it up in the release
> notes after the fact.
>
> In this case, there seems to have been a disagreement about _how_ the
> other display managers should be fixed. Regardless of that, I think it's
> clear that they _SHOULD_ have been fixed...

That's not obvious to me that the main issue is how this should have
been fixed in fedora. ConsoleKit could also have been planned from
the beginning with a consideration to how dm worked, for pam support, and
with a proposal for dm maintainers (or the packagers in fedora) for an
implementation. Instead we were pointed to a gdm patch after the fact.

> > if this attitude is endorsed by the project on a whole, which is the case
> > for fedora, see for example
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=228110#c19
> > and look at all the conversations on this mailing list or fesco
> > decisions.
>
> ... but I also think Jeremy was right in the above-mentioned #c19, where
> he dropped the bug status to 'tracker'. That's 'SHOULD', not 'MUST'.

Note that I didn't said that he was wrong.

> > A FESCo vote (at least of today FESCo) would certainly be to let the
> > minor dm be broken
>
> Maybe. I, for one, would vote against it -- I'd expect those responsible
> for the PackageKit 'feature' to fix it _somehow_, rather than just
> leaving it broken. Even if there is some argument that the fix could be
> done a better way.

But this is not that easy, especially in that case. I think that the kdm
patch, although functional is not right, because it hardcodes the
device path. As a package maintainer I would have preferred a broken wdm
rather than this patch. And I talked with the xdm upstream maintainer
and he was not going to accept such patch either.

That being said, I agree that people bringing forward the feature could
have been of more help and should have taken more attention to the help
I was asking for and the stuff I proposed. But they seem to be very
busy, so it is not easy.

> > (hopefully they will be fixed for the RHEL release),
>
> I hope that's not an issue for FESCo members -- although it _should_ be
> a factor in the decision-making process of @redhat.com folks working on
> stuff. "We're going to have to do the sensible thing in RHEL in the end
> anyway; let's do it right away and not screw Fedora over".

I think that many people in the fedora community, especially @RH people
and people in the board prefer a fast moving fedora, even if some
packages considered of less importance (like xdm) are screwed,
that give some testing for RHEL rather than a careful avoidance of
regressions. This is not the same thing, but quite consistent with
the opposition toward leaving infra open after EOL, with the argument
being 'Fedora is fast moving and RHEL/EPEL is stable, choose one of
the two, another way is chimeric'. I don't want to start a flamewar
about RH hidden agendas and so on and so forth, it is just how I
personnally feel. And to repeat myself once again this may be a very
good path, though it is certainly not the one I would have followed if
I was in the position of deciding.

I also think in the today's fedora community, be it from @RH or not,
(except from some reactionary people like me who come from a past
fedora and still haven't given up) there are a lot of people who
want something fast moving even if some packages considered of
less importance are screwed, without any reference to RHEL, but
because they are enthousiast desktop people, the way fedora is
fast moving suit them.

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Hi there,

I have recently reported 2 kernel crashes, one of them under VirtualBox, but another one on 8.10 beta 2.6.27-10 , fully updated and not broken. I suspect that they are caused by switching my USB modem to wireless are the other way around, as well as maybe conflicting packages and having too much authorization tools installed.


Anyway, I reported these on launchpad. Should I now also report them on bug-buddy or something like that, since I do not know if it is actually Ubuntu related.

Thanks,

Thomas

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Sorry,

here are the two reports:

Bug #286703
Bug #286389

2008/10/23 Thomas Delbeke <toom2079@gmail.com>

Hi there,

I have recently reported 2 kernel crashes, one of them under VirtualBox, but another one on 8.10 beta 2.6.27-10 , fully updated and not broken. I suspect that they are caused by switching my USB modem to wireless are the other way around, as well as maybe conflicting packages and having too much authorization tools installed.



Anyway, I reported these on launchpad. Should I now also report them on bug-buddy or something like that, since I do not know if it is actually Ubuntu related.

Thanks,

Thomas



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on 10-24-2008 3:21 PM Phil Schaffner spake the following:
> On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 14:19 -0400, Ed Westphal wrote:
>> Forgive my senility, but I'm continually amazed how many of us ole
>> fossils are still around, and running Linux! Not to use up too much
>> bandwidth, but the switch from Fortran 2 to 2D, for disk, was a big
>> event way back when. Then Fortran 4 came around! Be still my old
>> heart!
>
> WAY OT, but since the thread has already been hijacked, can't resist a
> trip down memory lane...
>
> Ah yes, how fondly I remember running FORTRAN from punched tape on the
> Data General Nova "minicomputer". At least it was not prone to dropping
> the 80-column card deck and having to re-sort it. Then we got the 8"
> hard-sector floppy drive. Luxury! Still had to boot it up with the
> correct sequence of flips of the front panel switches, but actually had
> somewhere to save output data as well as load programs - up to 256KB.
> Did real-time data acquisition using an 8-bit A/D and ran fast Fourier
> transforms to get frequency domain responses using ASCII graphics on a
> printer.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_General_Nova
>
> Seem to remember an "old farts" thread on this list a while back, so I
> guess "ole fossils" sounds a bit better. :-)
>
> Phil
I remember numbering on the back of cards with a pencil as a backup when you
dropped the deck. And of course you numbered by tens just in case you had to
insert something.

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Scott Silva wrote:
> on 10-24-2008 3:21 PM Phil Schaffner spake the following:
>> On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 14:19 -0400, Ed Westphal wrote:
>>> Forgive my senility, but I'm continually amazed how many of us ole
>>> fossils are still around, and running Linux! Not to use up too much
>>> bandwidth, but the switch from Fortran 2 to 2D, for disk, was a big
>>> event way back when. Then Fortran 4 came around! Be still my old
>>> heart!
>> WAY OT, but since the thread has already been hijacked, can't resist a
>> trip down memory lane...
>>
>> Ah yes, how fondly I remember running FORTRAN from punched tape on the
>> Data General Nova "minicomputer". At least it was not prone to dropping
>> the 80-column card deck and having to re-sort it. Then we got the 8"
>> hard-sector floppy drive. Luxury! Still had to boot it up with the
>> correct sequence of flips of the front panel switches, but actually had
>> somewhere to save output data as well as load programs - up to 256KB.
>> Did real-time data acquisition using an 8-bit A/D and ran fast Fourier
>> transforms to get frequency domain responses using ASCII graphics on a
>> printer.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_General_Nova
>>
>> Seem to remember an "old farts" thread on this list a while back, so I
>> guess "ole fossils" sounds a bit better. :-)
>>
>> Phil
> I remember numbering on the back of cards with a pencil as a backup when you
> dropped the deck. And of course you numbered by tens just in case you had to
> insert something.

That's why you punch sequence numbers in the
last 8 columns. :-)

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On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 16:16 -0700, Raymond Lillard wrote:
> That's why you punch sequence numbers in the
> last 8 columns. :-)

... and some of the fancier card readers would even sort them for you,
but remember to number by some integer >> 1 or you had to redo the whole
remainder of the deck to insert a line.


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On Fri, Oct 24, 2008, Phil Schaffner wrote:
>On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 16:16 -0700, Raymond Lillard wrote:
>> That's why you punch sequence numbers in the
>> last 8 columns. :-)
>
>... and some of the fancier card readers would even sort them for you,
>but remember to number by some integer >> 1 or you had to redo the whole
>remainder of the deck to insert a line.

The Burroughs Medium Systems mainframes I worked on allowed one to store
the program on disk, then compile with modifications in a card deck, using
the sequence numbers to replace or insert lines from the cards. There were
options to create a new disk file with the patches included, and to
resquence the source on disk. Typically there were several card desks in a
drawer which could be loaded to recreate the patched disk file by loading
them in sequence which was fine until the disk file was resequenced when it
was time to punch new cards from the disk file to replace the original deck
and patches. Punch cards were far more reliable backup than mag tape and
in a pinch one could read the printing on the card to fix a badly damaged
card (it was amazing how fast a card reader jam could turn the first card
into an accordian fold).

COBOL had the sequence numbers in the first six columns while FORTRAN in
the last eight.

I always laughed at the early quiz shows where they had a ``computer'
selecting the questions -- where the computer was really a card sorter that
would select the picked question into a specific bin.

Bill
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I*want to send the CD from you to my address




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On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 8:50 AM, huspan nasrulloh <ipan_nasrul@yahoo.com> wrote:


I*want to send the CD from you to my address




<trim>
Mistakenly sent Email? If it was really intended as a question, it failed to serve its purpose.* More details required.

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On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 18:09 -0700, Bill Campbell wrote:

> The Burroughs Medium Systems mainframes I worked on allowed one to store
> the program on disk, then compile with modifications in a card deck, using
> the sequence numbers to replace or insert lines from the cards. There were
> options to create a new disk file with the patches included, and to
> resquence the source on disk. Typically there were several card desks in a
> drawer which could be loaded to recreate the patched disk file by loading
> them in sequence which was fine until the disk file was resequenced when it
> was time to punch new cards from the disk file to replace the original deck
> and patches. Punch cards were far more reliable backup than mag tape and
> in a pinch one could read the printing on the card to fix a badly damaged
> card (it was amazing how fast a card reader jam could turn the first card
> into an accordian fold).

Then came CANDE, TD8xx terminals, and editing on your head-per-track
disk. Ah for the good old days, when men were men, and memory upgrades
involved fork lifts.

Dave


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