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Old 10-10-2008, 08:56 PM
Matej Cepl
 
Default

On 2008-10-10, 15:22 GMT, Dmitry Butskoy wrote:
> Kinda black-white mentality?

I have spent a lot of time with RH Linux,
Debian/{stable,testing,unstable} and now two years with Fedora --
I think I have some idea what I am talking about.

And you know, I know it is not fashionable, it is worthy to
remember that sometimes there is black and white, and not
everything is grey (thanks God!).

Matěj

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Old 10-10-2008, 09:01 PM
Matej Cepl
 
Default

On 2008-10-10, 16:16 GMT, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> Are there any distros which are very current, stable _and_
> source of a lot of development in the Linux/FOSS community?
> Seems to me, that once can any given distro can only have two
> out of three of those properties.

Two? Which one is "very current and stable"?

Matěj

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Old 10-10-2008, 09:27 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default

On Fri, 2008-10-10 at 09:08 -0500, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:33 AM, Dmitry Butskoy <buc@odusz.so-cdu.ru> wrote:
> >
> > This situation seems to be reflected in the Fedora project itself. Guess,
> > how many Fedora infrastructure servers are run under the latest "stable"
> > Fedora release?
>
> Almost none. The reason is simple - the Fedora project does not have
> infinite resources, the most important of which is time.

Yes, the reasons are simple, but I see different reasons than you:
* Fedora has focused too much on Desktops.
* The Fedora project works inefficiently (too much bureaucracy, too many
"closed circles", too little cooperation, too much egoism ...)

=> Result: Lack of people.

Ralf





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Old 10-10-2008, 09:32 PM
"Pavel Alexeev (aka Pahan-Hubbitus)"
 
Default

Matej Cepl пишет:

On 2008-10-10, 13:13 GMT, Mark Bidewell wrote:

I would submit that CentOS/RHEL IS the equivalent of
Fedora LTS.


I would venture even to say that CentOS *is* Fedora LTS
I agree what CentOS is more stable and has more time support, but it is
totally not equivalent of Fedora. Just see CVS branches of programs for
Fedora and RHEL. So, many (notably new and not highly famous) programs
is not present in RHEL and CentOS.


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Old 10-10-2008, 09:35 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default

Pavel Alexeev (aka Pahan-Hubbitus) wrote:

Matej Cepl пишет:

On 2008-10-10, 13:13 GMT, Mark Bidewell wrote:

I would submit that CentOS/RHEL IS the equivalent of
Fedora LTS.


I would venture even to say that CentOS *is* Fedora LTS
I agree what CentOS is more stable and has more time support, but it is
totally not equivalent of Fedora. Just see CVS branches of programs for
Fedora and RHEL. So, many (notably new and not highly famous) programs
is not present in RHEL and CentOS.


About 2000 more in EPEL. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL.
Participate, if you would like to see your (missing) favourites as well.


Rahul

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Old 10-10-2008, 09:35 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default

On Fri, 2008-10-10 at 12:38 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> Dmitry Butskoy wrote:
> > Itamar - IspBrasil wrote:
> >>
> >> any chance to increase the life of fedora releases ?
> >>
> >> or fedora will be only blending edge ?
> >>
> >> In my opinion fedora is losing space from centos and ubuntu
> >
> > ...
> >
> >> The brazilian government, one of the biggest Fedora Case of the world is
> >> changing from Fedora/ Red Hat to Ubuntu/Debian.
> >
> > The problem was at an initial point, when Fedora was considered "for
> > enthusiasts only". A lot of previous "RedHat Linux enthusiasts" just
> > switch to CentOS (and similar RHEL-based systems), no more using Fedora,
> > because "it is marked as a non-for-production system even by its creators".
> >
> The fact that they switched to CentOS is *good* for Fedora.
I can not disagree more - To me, it's yet another evidence of Fedora
being on the loose.

> CentOS's
> goals are better oriented to the needs of someone that wants to deploy a
> system and run it for years. Fedora is good for people who want to get
> the latest technologies from upstream as soon as they're stable enough
> to integrate into a running system.
Right. But why can't Fedora do better? I feel Fedora could do better.

> > This situation seems to be reflected in the Fedora project itself.
> > Guess, how many Fedora infrastructure servers are run under the latest
> > "stable" Fedora release?
>
> As few as possible.
IMO, a fundamental management/infrastructure mistake - If these people
were using Fedora, they would be facing the issues Fedora users are
facing everyday and likely would being to understand why people complain
about Fedora.

> The reason is not about stability. It is about
> updates. Once Fedora stops getting updates we'd have to upgrade to the
> next Fedora release with all of the churn that causes for vastly
> unrelated pieces of the OS.
Gotcha! If not even the Fedora project can handle the issues, why do you
expect users to be able to solve them? I think technically the issues
can be overcome. It's a matter of will.

Ralf


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Old 10-10-2008, 09:44 PM
Emmanuel Seyman
 
Default

* Patrice Dumas [10/10/2008 19:45] :
>
> When it requires cooperation with the infrastructure, it does.

How so ?

Reading through the archives, your project was to extend support
for Fedora releases past EOL on a volunteer basis. That doesn't
require cooperation from the Fedora Powers That Be, nor does it
require the Fedora infrastructure.

Emmanuel

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Old 10-10-2008, 09:53 PM
"Arthur Pemberton"
 
Default

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203@freenet.de> wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-10-10 at 12:38 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
>> Dmitry Butskoy wrote:
>> > Itamar - IspBrasil wrote:
[snip]
>> The fact that they switched to CentOS is *good* for Fedora.
> I can not disagree more - To me, it's yet another evidence of Fedora
> being on the loose.

You're going to have to expound on that. I do not see Centos in any
way as in competition with Fedora. Centos is something everyone should
be proud of.


>> CentOS's
>> goals are better oriented to the needs of someone that wants to deploy a
>> system and run it for years. Fedora is good for people who want to get
>> the latest technologies from upstream as soon as they're stable enough
>> to integrate into a running system.
> Right. But why can't Fedora do better? I feel Fedora could do better.

Sure. With more devs, servers, time, etc. But baring a sudden increase
in those, I would much prefer to see Fedora focus on dev and testing,
let other distros pretty things up.


>> > This situation seems to be reflected in the Fedora project itself.
>> > Guess, how many Fedora infrastructure servers are run under the latest
>> > "stable" Fedora release?
>>
>> As few as possible.
> IMO, a fundamental management/infrastructure mistake - If these people
> were using Fedora, they would be facing the issues Fedora users are
> facing everyday and likely would being to understand why people complain
> about Fedora.

Why would they, after often suggesting that Fedora _not_ be used on
production servers, use Fedora on their production servers?


>> The reason is not about stability. It is about
>> updates. Once Fedora stops getting updates we'd have to upgrade to the
>> next Fedora release with all of the churn that causes for vastly
>> unrelated pieces of the OS.
> Gotcha! If not even the Fedora project can handle the issues, why do you
> expect users to be able to solve them? I think technically the issues
> can be overcome. It's a matter of will.

Well, it's not really an issue. It's only an issue if you run Fedora
on your production servers. Which, again is up to you, not
recommended, and as such no one expects users to "solve" this problem
either.


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Old 10-10-2008, 09:56 PM
Behdad Esfahbod
 
Default

Itamar - IspBrasil wrote:
> forwarding message from Rodrigo Padula
>
> any chance to increase the life of fedora releases ?
>
> or fedora will be only blending edge ?
>
> In my opinion fedora is losing space from centos and ubuntu

I agree with the rest of the threda that CentOS *is* Fedora LTS!
The major problem Wikipedia faced seems to me more being that
Fedora/RHEL/CentOS is not really upgradeable, whereas Debian/Ubuntu handled
upgrades quite nicely. *That* seems to be a major weakness of us.

My 0.02CAD
behdad

>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Wikipidia - Goodbye Red Hat and Fedora
> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:42:55 -0300
> From: Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira <rodrigopadula@projetofedora.org>
> Reply-To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora
> user base <fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com>
> To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user
> base <fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com>
>
>
>
> Hello Guys!
>
> Read this bad news:
>
> http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php/id;1474805050;fp;16;fpid;1
>
> This is happening frequently. I think we will have to revise some things
> within the project, particularly the creation of a Legacy project or a
> Fedora LTS.
>
> The brazilian government, one of the biggest Fedora Case of the world is
> changing from Fedora/ Red Hat to Ubuntu/Debian.
>
> We need to think and create a solution to give support by a long time or
> the fedora user will decrease!
>
> My 0,02
>

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Old 10-10-2008, 10:03 PM
"Arthur Pemberton"
 
Default

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 4:56 PM, Behdad Esfahbod <behdad@behdad.org> wrote:
> Itamar - IspBrasil wrote:
>> forwarding message from Rodrigo Padula
>>
>> any chance to increase the life of fedora releases ?
>>
>> or fedora will be only blending edge ?
>>
>> In my opinion fedora is losing space from centos and ubuntu
>
> I agree with the rest of the threda that CentOS *is* Fedora LTS!
> The major problem Wikipedia faced seems to me more being that
> Fedora/RHEL/CentOS is not really upgradeable, whereas Debian/Ubuntu handled
> upgrades quite nicely. *That* seems to be a major weakness of us.


I saw no mention of Centos, though someone in the thread mentioned
that it had been attempted. Your point about upgrade makes sense,
though I find it pretty weak. Is doing an inplace upgrade on a
production server common? I don't think so, but I am quite possibly
wrong.


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