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Old 04-05-2008, 08:17 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default

s. keeling wrote:

Mark Allums <mark@allums.com>:

Hal Vaughan wrote:
stay alive. Some, those generally at the lower levels of Piaget's
Hierarchy of Needs, will say survival is important while those focused
on the higher levels (focused on self actualization) where, since it's

Maslow


Thankyou for the redirect. Not that you've offered to defend it but,
Poppycock! :-) "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to
lose ..."

"The first four layers of the pyramid are what Maslow called
"deficiency needs" or "D-needs": the individual does not feel
anything if they are met, but feels anxious if they are not met."

... does not feel anything if they are met ...

This man's never been poor. When you're poor, even the meanest of
pleasures make you feel, momentarily, like a real honest to goodness
human being again (possibly even more willing to stay that way, as in
alive), and that's just what he needs most then. In that point of
one's life, anxious is a constant. Any respite, even an egg mcmuffin
or a smoke, can produce bliss. I very much doubt he ever was there.
Good for him.

My guess is he's a typical Ivory Tower researcher with little more to
go on than his theory based on no first hand evidence. Psycho-
anything is a primitive science (if that). No, I'm not a
Scientologist.



Can't argue with that. The early psych people were mostly working with
their own head for the primary source. Later ones tried to be more
scientific. E.g., Freud is mostly discredited these days. Still, they
all had their own insights to contribute.

The real progress was made when people started modeling the actual brain.

IMO, (to get back to computers, at least, if not Debian) the real
progress in AI will be made when we can really start modeling the brain.

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Old 04-05-2008, 08:19 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default

Adam Hardy wrote:
Now, how can you "buy" something that is "free" like Debian? Well, it
has real

costs associated with it -


The real cost of using Debian is the "opportunity cost". The cost of
using it instead of some alternative. The tradeoff. We all choose
Debian for different reasons, but these are not just monetary.


the price (if you buy it pre-burned, or
pre-installed), the cost of the bandwidth if you download it (plus the
cost of
the CD/DVDs - just the bandwidth if you choose a Netinstall. In
addition, all
operating systems have different capabilities and different pitfalls
(i.e. they
may work very well on some systems, but not so well or not at all on
others).


In the end, it is a matter of choice, based on costs (perceived and
real) and

benefits (also perceived and real). These perceptions are based upon our
imperfect interpretation of how our brains filter sensory data, and
upon our
imperfect cognition.


Again, the phrase you are looking for is "opportunity cost". The loss
you have for not using something else is a cost.


Thus, both psychology and economics (subjects I

have
studied) have a place in this discussion. The real question is: How
can we
maximize the benefits of Debian, for both current and future users,
and get

them to perceive these increased benefits as such?


The best way is to admire the nut RMS for what he attempted, and go on
with our lives in the Real World (tm).


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Old 04-05-2008, 08:45 PM
Paul Johnson
 
Default

On Friday 04 April 2008 10:35:26 am Hal Vaughan wrote:

> I would agree with you. I know there are people who will starve rather
> than violate their beliefs, but I also wonder what he would do if he
> had a kid to feed and his choice was to program for a company that
> produces closed source software and not having a job.

What kind of moron commits themselves to spending $205,000+ on a new kid
before having that kind of money lined up in advance? Seems kind of stupid
to put yourself in that kind of ethical dilemma in the first place. It's not
like there aren't six billion other people on this already overpopulated
rock, plopping out another before you can afford to raise it through age 18
in this day and age ought to be considered child abuse.

--
Paul Johnson
baloo@ursine.ca
 
Old 04-05-2008, 08:57 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default

Paul Johnson wrote:

On Saturday 05 April 2008 01:18:23 pm Mark Allums wrote:

Hal Vaughan wrote:

Yes, it is an attack on the language, since the other discussion (in
terms of software) is a matter of degree and freedom is slavery is
dealing with exact opposites. (Where have I heard that phrase about
freedom and slavery before?...)

Freedom is Slavery : Slogan in 1984 by George Orwell

Also:

War is Peace
Ignorance is Strength


So what is it when your mailer fails to include proper References:, thus
breaking threads, Mark? )





It's not my mailer, it's me (I use Thunderbird/Mozilla/Icedove), and I
have to apologize for it. My habit is to hit the reply button, but that
doesn't work on this list. I used the reply button, when I should have
used the reply-all button. Sorry about this. I will try to find some
sticky notes and put a reminder on my monitor until I remember
automatically. I would really like it if this list were like all others
I am on/have ever been on, and used the reply-to field.


I wish that they would set it up to be like this:

From: the poster of the message
Sender: debian-user-bounces@lists.debian.org
Reply-to: debian-user@lists.debian.org
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
CC: other lists (crosspost)
BCC: other recipients

I will try to do better in the future.

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Old 04-05-2008, 09:24 PM
Hal Vaughan
 
Default

On Saturday 05 April 2008, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Friday 04 April 2008 10:35:26 am Hal Vaughan wrote:
> > I would agree with you. I know there are people who will starve
> > rather than violate their beliefs, but I also wonder what he would
> > do if he had a kid to feed and his choice was to program for a
> > company that produces closed source software and not having a job.
>
> What kind of moron commits themselves to spending $205,000+ on a new
> kid before having that kind of money lined up in advance?

I'd say about 98% of all people that have children. Talk to your
parents. Did they have every cent they needed to raise you before they
had you? No parent does. Life is a crapshoot. You can decide you're
in good shape financially, decide to have a kid, get the EPT test back
and celebrate, then walk into work the next day and find out you've
been downsized.

Almost no parent can line up that kind of money in advance.

I truly hope you're being facetious because the alternative would be to
wonder if you've ever talked to any parents.

> Seems kind
> of stupid to put yourself in that kind of ethical dilemma in the
> first place. It's not like there aren't six billion other people on
> this already overpopulated rock, plopping out another before you can
> afford to raise it through age 18 in this day and age ought to be
> considered child abuse.

Sorry to be so harsh, but there's no other way to call it than to say
such as statement is shortsighted, overdramatic, and ignorant.
Planning out the next 18 years is just not possible. Even for the
independently wealthy, there is no way to be sure you'll have the
resources in 18 years that you have now.

By your standard, less than 2% of the entire world's population should
ever consider parenthood, and those would be the richest 2% on the
planet.

Unless you're at least a multi-millionaire (considering numbers these
days, I'd say worth $3-5 million), you've just qualified yourself as an
unfit Father.

Hal


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Old 04-05-2008, 09:25 PM
Andrew Sackville-West
 
Default

On Sat, Apr 05, 2008 at 03:57:27PM -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> I would really like it if this list were like all others
> I am on/have ever been on, and used the reply-to field.
>
> I wish that they would set it up to be like this:
>
> From: the poster of the message
> Sender: debian-user-bounces@lists.debian.org
> Reply-to: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> CC: other lists (crosspost)
> BCC: other recipients
>
> I will try to do better in the future.
>

http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

I have seen direct evidence of the problem inherent in reply-to
munging. We had a student reply to an email thinking she was replying
only to the instructor and instead sent her tearful sounding pleas to
the entire class list. Not cool. Much better to err on the side of
sending mail to fewer people than the opposite.


A
 
Old 04-05-2008, 09:46 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default

Andrew Sackville-West wrote:

On Sat, Apr 05, 2008 at 03:57:27PM -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
I would really like it if this list were like all others I am
on/have ever been on, and used the reply-to field.


I wish that they would set it up to be like this:

From: the poster of the message
Sender: debian-user-bounces@lists.debian.org
Reply-to: debian-user@lists.debian.org
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
CC: other lists (crosspost)
BCC: other recipients

I will try to do better in the future.



http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

I have seen direct evidence of the problem inherent in reply-to
munging. We had a student reply to an email thinking she was replying
only to the instructor and instead sent her tearful sounding pleas to
the entire class list. Not cool. Much better to err on the side of
sending mail to fewer people than the opposite.


In that case, be prepared to receive lots more broken threads. And not
just from me. From every newcomer who's ever been on a list before.
Really, every other mailing list I participate in now, or in the past,
does it that way. The Debian lists are the exception, not the rule.

The student got a crash course in email settings. It's tough. That's
life.


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Old 04-05-2008, 09:54 PM
Andrew Sackville-West
 
Default

On Sat, Apr 05, 2008 at 04:46:41PM -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
>>> On Sat, Apr 05, 2008 at 03:57:27PM -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
>>>> I would really like it if this list were like all others I am
>>>> on/have ever been on, and used the reply-to field.
>>>>
>>>> I wish that they would set it up to be like this:
>>>>
>>>> From: the poster of the message
>>>> Sender: debian-user-bounces@lists.debian.org
>>>> Reply-to: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>>>> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>>>> CC: other lists (crosspost)
>>>> BCC: other recipients
>>>>
>>>> I will try to do better in the future.
>>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
>>>
>>> I have seen direct evidence of the problem inherent in reply-to
>>> munging. We had a student reply to an email thinking she was replying
>>> only to the instructor and instead sent her tearful sounding pleas to
>>> the entire class list. Not cool. Much better to err on the side of
>>> sending mail to fewer people than the opposite.
>
> In that case, be prepared to receive lots more broken threads. And not
> just from me. From every newcomer who's ever been on a list before.

I anxiously await the flood of email.

> Really, every other mailing list I participate in now, or in the past,
> does it that way. The Debian lists are the exception, not the rule.

I thought I was just being helpful in pointing out the logic behind
avoiding reply-to munging, but apparently not. Note please that most
people don't have this problem on this list. Those that do, quickly
adapt. Also, there is a reply-to-list extension of some kind for
t-bird.


>
> The student got a crash course in email settings. It's tough. That's
> life.

yeah, it's tough. It was also a simply avoided mistake. We all make
simple mistakes. One that is so simply avoidable should be, IMO. but
it's only that, my opinion.

this issue has been flogged to death on this list many times. Read the
archives. Sorry if I offended you. I will drop the subject.

A
 
Old 04-05-2008, 10:11 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default

Andrew Sackville-West wrote:


this issue has been flogged to death on this list many times. Read the
archives. Sorry if I offended you. I will drop the subject.


I am not offended. Thank you for the link. I will go there and read it
soon. If the issue has come up before, then there probably exist plenty
of people who think as I do.


I am a newcomer, and I hope I am not making a nuisance of myself. It
will take me some time to adjust to this community's conventions. Until
then, I would ask that the old-timers be tolerant of my ignorance.


I will check for that extension for Thunderbird. I will use it if I end
up needing it.


This list is full of smart people, and I like reading all the traffic.
Don't drop a subject because *I* might be offended. You might drop it
when there is nothing left that can be productively added. I will try
to restrain myself from posting something that doesn't add to the
discussion.


Sincerely,

Mark Allums


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Old 04-05-2008, 10:20 PM
Andrew Sackville-West
 
Default

On Sat, Apr 05, 2008 at 05:11:36PM -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
>>
>> this issue has been flogged to death on this list many times. Read the
>> archives. Sorry if I offended you. I will drop the subject.
>
> I am not offended. Thank you for the link. I will go there and read it
> soon. If the issue has come up before, then there probably exist plenty
> of people who think as I do.
>
> I am a newcomer, and I hope I am not making a nuisance of myself. It
> will take me some time to adjust to this community's conventions.

hence my link... to provide some guidance for you. purely with the
best of intentions!

> Until then, I would ask that the old-timers be tolerant of my
> ignorance.

of course. If I came off as intolerant in my original mention, I
apologize, that was not my intent.

>
> I will check for that extension for Thunderbird. I will use it if I end
> up needing it.
>
> This list is full of smart people, and I like reading all the traffic.
> Don't drop a subject because *I* might be offended. You might drop it
> when there is nothing left that can be productively added. I will try
> to restrain myself from posting something that doesn't add to the
> discussion.

I assure I was only dropping it because there was nothing more to
add. And we all wander OT around here from time to time... as this
thread has done quite nicely (and flame free too! Good job guys!!)

regards and welcome

A
 

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