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Old 02-12-2010, 05:39 AM
Tobias Ringström
 
Default Display settings should not be per user

I'm using two 1280x1024 displays rotated 90 degrees with an Nvidia
graphics card, and I was very impressed by Fedora 12, because it was the
first Fedora release where I could get this setup working without using
Nvidia's closed source driver, and I didn't even have to fiddle with
xorg.conf. After a few very intuitive changes in
gnome-display-properties, it was just perfect.

There's only one problem, and it's that the display settings are per
user, and I can't even find a way to change the settings for the login
screen.

Why would anyone even want user specific display settings? Are users
expected to move monitors around between logging in? Per user settings
might be useful as a feature, but it's a very unfriendly default, or am
I missing something?

/Tobias

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Old 02-12-2010, 05:56 AM
Don Quixote de la Mancha
 
Default Display settings should not be per user

2010/2/11 Tobias Ringström <tobias@ringis.se>:
> Why would anyone even want user specific display settings? Are users
> expected to move monitors around between logging in? Per user settings
> might be useful as a feature, but it's a very unfriendly default, or am
> I missing something?

It would make sense for the cathode ray tube multisync monitors from
the days of yore.

Obsessive geek types could set the resolution very high to fit more
source code on the screen...

... while those with poor eyesight could set the resolution very low,
to make text larger and so easier to read.

It doesn't make any sense at all of LCD displays though. One just
about always wants to use the physical resolution of the LCD pixels.

What I've been looking for, for a long time, yet am unable to find, is
a very large, yet LOW resolution LCD display.

What I would like to see are great big fat square sharp pixels, with
great big, sharply defined and completely non-antialiased text.

I spend all day long working in front of a monitor. Then when I go
home, I spend all night long hanging out in front of a monitor so I
can troll the Series of Tubes.

This makes my eyes very tired, from having to read so much tiny print.

Don Quixote
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:34 AM
Ed Greshko
 
Default Display settings should not be per user

Tobias Ringström wrote:
> I'm using two 1280x1024 displays rotated 90 degrees with an Nvidia
> graphics card, and I was very impressed by Fedora 12, because it was the
> first Fedora release where I could get this setup working without using
> Nvidia's closed source driver, and I didn't even have to fiddle with
> xorg.conf. After a few very intuitive changes in
> gnome-display-properties, it was just perfect.
>
> There's only one problem, and it's that the display settings are per
> user, and I can't even find a way to change the settings for the login
> screen.
>
> Why would anyone even want user specific display settings? Are users
> expected to move monitors around between logging in? Per user settings
> might be useful as a feature, but it's a very unfriendly default, or am
> I missing something?
>
>
I think maybe you've not considered....

I tend to use only one user account for myself and my wife uses one. I
have always worn glasses and my progressive lens are such that my left
eye's prescription is for monitor use while the right is for books and
such. I love running my monitor at 2018x1152. My wife doesn't wear
glasses even though she really should. So, she wants hers at a lower
resolution.

On my test system, where I have various user accounts that I use for
various things I want to have a system wide default. For that, I rely
on the xorg.conf to provide that and never have to invoke user preferences.

On the WinXP system also share you are constrained to system wide
settings. We are constantly chiding each other to change the settings
back to the other's settings. Kind of like the toilet seat.... :-)



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Old 02-12-2010, 06:47 AM
Marcel Rieux
 
Default Display settings should not be per user

2010/2/12 Tobias Ringström <tobias@ringis.se>:
> I'm using two 1280x1024 displays rotated 90 degrees with an Nvidia
> graphics card, and I was very impressed by Fedora 12, because it was the
> first Fedora release where I could get this setup working without using
> Nvidia's closed source driver, and I didn't even have to fiddle with
> xorg.conf. After a few very intuitive changes in
> gnome-display-properties, it was just perfect.

I'm trying in vain to get Twinview to work with NVIDIA's proprietary
drivers. You know, images that show in a 5x4 format on my Viewsonic
monitor showing fullscreen in 5x4 format on my Sony TV and images that
are 16x9 filling up all the TV*screen.

Do you believe this it is possible with the Nouveau driver? That would
be wonderful, mainly if it wouldn't prevent me from installing a TV
tuner later on.
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:59 AM
Tim
 
Default Display settings should not be per user

On Thu, 2010-02-11 at 22:56 -0800, Don Quixote de la Mancha wrote:
> It would make sense for the cathode ray tube multisync monitors from
> the days of yore.
>
> Obsessive geek types could set the resolution very high to fit more
> source code on the screen...
>
> ... while those with poor eyesight could set the resolution very low,
> to make text larger and so easier to read.

Why do people repeatedly get this so wrong? (Users and those making the
systems.) The pixel count and resolution should be set to match the
display card and the monitor, it's the FONT SIZE and graphics sizes that
you should change.

It's the *only* way to get things to work properly. Circles get drawn
as circles, not eggs. Print previews are able to show things at "real
size" on request, which puts an end to masses of test prints trying to
get something you want printed at 1 cm square (for example) to actually
print at the correct size.

--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.



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Old 02-12-2010, 07:21 AM
Tobias Ringström
 
Default Display settings should not be per user

On 02/12/2010 08:47 AM, Marcel Rieux wrote:
> I'm trying in vain to get Twinview to work with NVIDIA's proprietary
> drivers. You know, images that show in a 5x4 format on my Viewsonic
> monitor showing fullscreen in 5x4 format on my Sony TV and images that
> are 16x9 filling up all the TV screen.
>
> Do you believe this it is possible with the Nouveau driver? That would
> be wonderful, mainly if it wouldn't prevent me from installing a TV
> tuner later on.
>

All I know is that dual rotated monitors as well as dual monitors with
different resoltions works very well here (no xorg.conf and only using
gnome-display-properties).

Perhaps just give it a try?

/Tobias

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Old 02-12-2010, 07:26 AM
birger
 
Default Display settings should not be per user

On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 07:39 +0100, Tobias Ringström wrote:
> Why would anyone even want user specific display settings? Are users
> expected to move monitors around between logging in? Per user settings
> might be useful as a feature, but it's a very unfriendly default, or am
> I missing something?

Yes and no...

Remember the old CRT screens? You know, those that are big and bulky?
They are still in use, and on those changing the resolution was the easy
way to adjust the user experience in one step for users with either
better or poorer sight than the norm.

For flat screens this is a very, very wrong way to do it, but old habits
never die. I could agree that users shouldn't be allowed to change
resolution on flat screens. Instead they should get info on the proper
way.

Placement of screens is a different story. No, users are not supposed to
move their screens around. What they frequently do is move the computers
around. You know - laptops? For laptops you definitely want users to
control placement of screens, right? At work I have one setup, at my
home office a second one. Then there are at least two frequently used
meeting rooms, one with a big screen, the other with a projector.

Ideally, each external screen should be recognized (does EDID hold a
serial number?) so the previous setup for that screen could be recalled
automagically.

I could agree that it should be easy to set a system default, especially
for desktop systems. I clearly see the problem with the login prompt in
certain configurations.

For the first problem, adjusting to sight, there are other possibilities
that should be used, but adjusting resolution was more user friendly
than having to tweak a whole lot of settings to get everything right.
Perhaps there should be a tool in 'assistive technologies' to handle all
of this? The display configuration could then have a button to launch
this tool.

birger


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Old 02-12-2010, 07:27 AM
Don Quixote de la Mancha
 
Default Display settings should not be per user

On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 11:59 PM, Tim <ignored_mailbox@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> Why do people repeatedly get this so wrong? *(Users and those making the
> systems.) *The pixel count and resolution should be set to match the
> display card and the monitor, it's the FONT SIZE and graphics sizes that
> you should change.

My weary eyes are sorry to tell you that it is only in the last few
years that application software has been widely available, that allows
one to increase the display size without also increasing the print
size. That is, one can set the size of some type in points, but then
set the magnification at which the entire document is displayed - or
the "minification" if you want to fit a whole bunch of pages on the
screen, without scrolling.

You know what I'd really, really like? I don't actually want those
big fat pixels I went on so much about. Not At All!

No, what I want are lots and lots of really *tiny* pixels, say 200 of
them per inch.

But I want my application software to still be able to get the sizes
of things right, both on the display and on printed pages.

That would require that drawing be done in terms of "ruler
measurements", and not in terms of "pixel measurements". For type,
the text size would be specified in points or picas. For everything
else it would be specified in inches or centimetres.

Cocoa on Mac OS X can do this; Cocoa drawing is always done using
floating-point measurements, and not integer pixel dimensions at all.
I eagerly look forward to the day that Apple starts shipping Mac
laptops with 200 DPI LCD screens. Such screens are already being
manufactured, but are only economical for small devices such as
smartphones, because they are very expensive.

But Wait! There's More!

If Cocoa can do it on Mac OS X, then GnuStep can do it on Linux too.
GnuStep is a source code-compatible clone on Cocoa. Both frameworks
use the Objective-C programming language. On both platforms, the
Objective-C compiler is - and always has been - GCC with the addition
of the Objective-C front end.

But Wait! There's Less!

GnuStep isn't supported on Fedora because of some manner of Political
Insanity. Cocoa and GnuStep software is always packaged in small
directory trees known as bundles; all of the files that on a
traditional *NIX box are spewed all over God's Creation and Then Some
are, with GnuStep and Cocoa, all kept neatly in one small tree.

To cleanly uninstall a GnuStep or Cocoa application, one just uses "rm
-r" on the bundle directory, or drags it to the trash.

But I'm afraid that just isn't acceptable to the Fedora Powers That
Be. Until they can find some way to package GnuStep applications so
that they too are spread all over God's Creation and Them Some, those
who decide what software is to be included in Fedora, will not allow
GnuStep applications of any kind on a Fedora box.

My weary eyes just want to say, that that's a really fucked-up
attitude. And Then Some.

Don Quixote.
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Old 02-12-2010, 07:45 AM
Tobias Ringström
 
Default Display settings should not be per user

On 02/12/2010 09:26 AM, birger wrote:
> Placement of screens is a different story. No, users are not supposed to
> move their screens around. What they frequently do is move the computers
> around. You know - laptops? For laptops you definitely want users to
> control placement of screens, right? At work I have one setup, at my
> home office a second one. Then there are at least two frequently used
> meeting rooms, one with a big screen, the other with a projector.
>

Well of course, but that has nothing at all to do with per user
settings. You don't use switch user account when you connect an external
monitor to a laptop, I hope. :-)

> I could agree that it should be easy to set a system default, especially
> for desktop systems. I clearly see the problem with the login prompt in
> certain configurations.
>

Yeah, a rotated login screen (which is my problem) is really painful for
the neck.

/Tobias

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Old 02-12-2010, 07:48 AM
birger
 
Default Display settings should not be per user

On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 00:27 -0800, Don Quixote de la Mancha wrote:

> GnuStep isn't supported on Fedora because of some manner of Political
> Insanity. Cocoa and GnuStep software is always packaged in small
> directory trees known as bundles; all of the files that on a
> traditional *NIX box are spewed all over God's Creation and Then Some
> are, with GnuStep and Cocoa, all kept neatly in one small tree.

All things Fedora could potentially end up in RHEL. I can assure you
that all my experience from > 20 years of running Unix-based servers
confirms RedHats policy on this. When running hundreds of servers you
cannot know how and where each kind of 'bundle' is installed. You need
to know where all config files are. Where all log files are. Without
knowing any details about what bundles are installed on a server.
Otherwise you will make big mistakes. Really big ones.

I actually drafted a policy for one of my biggest customers outlining
the same kind of requirements for all 3rd party unix apps on all kinds
of Unix systems. We demanded that all config files go in /etc, all log
files in /var/log/<appname>, and that the install directory should be
read-only. Being one of the big oil companies, they actually had the
muscle to force app vendors to accept this.

Are all OpenSource apps designed this way? No. Most of them will by
default compile into either a 'bundle' in /usr/local or at least put
their config files and log files in /usr/local/etc, /usr/local/log, and
so on. The thing is, they have a build system that supports changing
these defaults at compile time. All you need for Fedora is then a
spec-file that specifies the arguments for the build systems so the
package gets built correctly for Fedora. If GnuStep is well-coded it
should be easy to rebuild it to conform.

birger


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