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Old 02-02-2010, 08:12 AM
Ed Greshko
 
Default A "sound" observation

At this time I run all of my Fedora systems as VMs in VMware. My host
is RHELv4.8. On this system my sound card is a "ancient" Creative Labs
SB Audigy. When configuring the VM you can select either "ALSA" or
"OSS: /dev/dsp" and directly access the sound hardware. "ALSA" is the
preferred connection to avoid conflicts between the host and guest.

While I am normally a KDE user my F12 system has both KDE and GNOME
installed. I don't normally use sound on this VM...but sometime after
the initial install sound has gone silent when the sound card is
configured as "ALSA". Wish I had paid more attention to what update
caused the change. But to continue....

I also have an openSUSE system with only KDE installed and when I
installed it I declined to install pulseaudio (they have a check-box for
it). It is fully updated and sound with "ALSA" selected is no problem.

So, I just installed F12 from the Live-KDE iso. Immediately after the
install I removed all the pulseaudio bits and then fully updated the
system. It too has no problem to play sound with "ALSA" configured.

I snapshotted the system, did a "yum groupinstall GNOME Desktop",
restarted and *poof* sound is no more. pavucontrol did have the Output
Devices at 10% and Playback at 0% but putting those at 100% made no
difference. kmix had Master and PCM at max.

At some point I may do a bit more troubleshooting. But, it is good to
experience the frustration other have with sound and apparently
"pulseaudio". Chances are I'll be acquiring some new hardware in the
coming months. I'm considering to run Fedora on it. If that
happens...it will be sans GNOME and sans pulseaudio.

At this moment pulseaudio seems more of a PITA than anything and kind of
crazy that a desktop environment would tie itself to it.



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Old 02-02-2010, 08:46 AM
Andrew Gray
 
Default A "sound" observation

On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 17:12 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:


At this time I run all of my Fedora systems as VMs in VMware. My host
is RHELv4.8. On this system my sound card is a "ancient" Creative Labs
SB Audigy. When configuring the VM you can select either "ALSA" or
"OSS: /dev/dsp" and directly access the sound hardware. "ALSA" is the
preferred connection to avoid conflicts between the host and guest.

While I am normally a KDE user my F12 system has both KDE and GNOME
installed. I don't normally use sound on this VM...but sometime after
the initial install sound has gone silent when the sound card is
configured as "ALSA". Wish I had paid more attention to what update
caused the change. But to continue....

I also have an openSUSE system with only KDE installed and when I
installed it I declined to install pulseaudio (they have a check-box for
it). It is fully updated and sound with "ALSA" selected is no problem.

So, I just installed F12 from the Live-KDE iso. Immediately after the
install I removed all the pulseaudio bits and then fully updated the
system. It too has no problem to play sound with "ALSA" configured.

I snapshotted the system, did a "yum groupinstall GNOME Desktop",
restarted and *poof* sound is no more. pavucontrol did have the Output
Devices at 10% and Playback at 0% but putting those at 100% made no
difference. kmix had Master and PCM at max.

At some point I may do a bit more troubleshooting. But, it is good to
experience the frustration other have with sound and apparently
"pulseaudio". Chances are I'll be acquiring some new hardware in the
coming months. I'm considering to run Fedora on it. If that
happens...it will be sans GNOME and sans pulseaudio.

At this moment pulseaudio seems more of a PITA than anything and kind of
crazy that a desktop environment would tie itself to it.





Hi



I use F12 Gnome fully updated and find pulse audio sound preference doesn't offer the control I want for my ntel 82801 (ICH9 family) HD Audio



Namely I have radio coming in on audio IN* and want it to play through the Desktop speakers. Pulse audio Sound Preferences show the Audio in has content BUT has no ability to route it to the Sound OUPUT



I therefore have had to install gmixer as it DOES offer the ability to route Audio IN to Audio Output !!



The pulse audio sound preference seems vary limited in controlling a sound card facilities



--Andrew Gray







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Old 02-02-2010, 10:14 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default A "sound" observation

Ed Greshko wrote:
> At this moment pulseaudio seems more of a PITA than anything and kind of
> crazy that a desktop environment would tie itself to it.

We also default to PulseAudio in KDE, this is not just a GNOME thing,
PulseAudio is the default in Fedora in general.

Your problems seem to be due to proprietary software (VMware) not supporting
PulseAudio properly. They're probably doing strange things to the ALSA API.
This is not a Fedora problem.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 02-02-2010, 01:05 PM
Mike Cloaked
 
Default A "sound" observation

Also might be worth running "alsamixer" or "alsamixer -c0" from the
terminal, and making sure that things like pcm are set at a sensible level -
checking all other levels as well. Occasionally in the past I have been
without sound and that approach has almost always fixed things for me -
having said that I have not had any sound issues myself in f12.
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:14 PM
Ed Greshko
 
Default A "sound" observation

Mike Cloaked wrote:
> Also might be worth running "alsamixer" or "alsamixer -c0" from the
> terminal, and making sure that things like pcm are set at a sensible level -
> checking all other levels as well. Occasionally in the past I have been
> without sound and that approach has almost always fixed things for me -
> having said that I have not had any sound issues myself in f12.
>
Sounds like something to check as time permits.

Thanks,
Ed


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Old 02-02-2010, 01:25 PM
Ed Greshko
 
Default A "sound" observation

Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Ed Greshko wrote:
>
>> At this moment pulseaudio seems more of a PITA than anything and kind of
>> crazy that a desktop environment would tie itself to it.
>>
>
> We also default to PulseAudio in KDE, this is not just a GNOME thing,
> PulseAudio is the default in Fedora in general.
>
> Your problems seem to be due to proprietary software (VMware) not supporting
> PulseAudio properly. They're probably doing strange things to the ALSA API.
> This is not a Fedora problem.
>
First of all.... I don't know why you use "we". I don't think you
speak for the "Fedora Project". (OK, I'm very sure you don't speak for
the Fedora Project) I discount most of what you say.

Second, I know that within the Fedora KDE release pulseaudio is
installed by default. But, unlike GNOME one can easily dispense with
pulseaudio with KDE installed from the start.

Third, sound worked just fine on my VM's prior to an update. Others
have had their issues with pulse audio even without VMware. IMHO,
pulseaudio is a work in progress.

Last, but not least, these are my observations. I don't/didn't suggest
it was any particular entities problem. Yet, I have come to the
conclusion that life without pulseaudio is my preferred path. And,
since GNOME seems (unless I can keep it from pulling in PA) to have
requirements for pulseaudio life is better off without GNOME.

Again, these are my observations and my conclusions. As time goes on, I
will revisit them.


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Old 02-02-2010, 10:18 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default A "sound" observation

Ed Greshko wrote:
> First of all.... I don't know why you use "we". I don't think you
> speak for the "Fedora Project". (OK, I'm very sure you don't speak for
> the Fedora Project) I discount most of what you say.

I am a Fedora KDE packager, so I say "we" when I speak of the KDE SIG in
particular or Fedora packagers in general. (In this case, it was about how
KDE is set up in Fedora, so I obviously meant "we" as in the Fedora KDE
packagers. And yes, I'm one of the decision-makers in KDE SIG.)

> Second, I know that within the Fedora KDE release pulseaudio is
> installed by default. But, unlike GNOME one can easily dispense with
> pulseaudio with KDE installed from the start.

PulseAudio is getting more and more integrated in KDE as well. See e.g.:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/KDE_PulseAudio_Integration

> Third, sound worked just fine on my VM's prior to an update.

That's because you installed from the F12 KDE spin which had a packaging
mistake which made Phonon not use PulseAudio. As a result, Phonon would grab
the sound device directly and prevent PulseAudio from grabbing it. The
update you complain about is probably the one which fixed that issue.
(Phonon does use PulseAudio now in F12 + updates.)

> Others have had their issues with pulse audio even without VMware.

Not all of those are PulseAudio's fault. Sure, PulseAudio also has bugs, but
most of the issues are caused either by broken applications or by broken
ALSA drivers. Many of those issues have already been fixed. PulseAudio
itself also gets many bugfixes.

> IMHO, pulseaudio is a work in progress.

Almost all software is. That doesn't mean it's not already usable now.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 02-02-2010, 10:59 PM
Ed Greshko
 
Default A "sound" observation

Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Ed Greshko wrote:
>
>> First of all.... I don't know why you use "we". I don't think you
>> speak for the "Fedora Project". (OK, I'm very sure you don't speak for
>> the Fedora Project) I discount most of what you say.
>>
>
> I am a Fedora KDE packager, so I say "we" when I speak of the KDE SIG in
> particular or Fedora packagers in general. (In this case, it was about how
> KDE is set up in Fedora, so I obviously meant "we" as in the Fedora KDE
> packagers. And yes, I'm one of the decision-makers in KDE SIG.)
>
That's nice. Yet, you are still only "one" of the many. I sure hope
that when you use "we" you have consulted with the others in your
collective to insure you are speaking for everyone. You certainly
didn't ask when you stated that "we" didn't have the time to help an F9
user with an issue he had. Nor did you see fit to explain the context
of "we".
>> Second, I know that within the Fedora KDE release pulseaudio is
>> installed by default. But, unlike GNOME one can easily dispense with
>> pulseaudio with KDE installed from the start.
>>
>
> PulseAudio is getting more and more integrated in KDE as well. See e.g.:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/KDE_PulseAudio_Integration
>
Yet, it can still be ripped out nicely in KDE.
>> Third, sound worked just fine on my VM's prior to an update.
>>
>
> That's because you installed from the F12 KDE spin which had a packaging
> mistake which made Phonon not use PulseAudio. As a result, Phonon would grab
> the sound device directly and prevent PulseAudio from grabbing it. The
> update you complain about is probably the one which fixed that issue.
> (Phonon does use PulseAudio now in F12 + updates.)
>
It seems I may have not been clear in my original message and left it to
open to interpretation.

Yet I didn't say my original install was from the KDE spin. The
original install was from the Fedora-12-i386-DVD.iso and customized to
include both GNOME and KDE. And sound worked just fine. At some point,
when I wasn't paying attention, sound died.

FWIW, a Ubuntu VM running pulseaudio 0.9.19 works just fine. Going to
be interesting to see what happens when Ubuntu updates to 0.9.21.
>> IMHO, pulseaudio is a work in progress.
>>
>
> Almost all software is. That doesn't mean it's not already usable now.
>
>
It is, for me, unusable if "updates" break things that used to work.


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