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Old 01-04-2008, 02:18 AM
Leslie Satenstein
 
Default Decorum needs to be raised.

I have been in IT for 40 years, and in that time I learned a lesson or two.

a)* Respect the other person.* He is entitled to different ideas.

b) I was once a beginner with lots to learn, and with only a fixed number of hours in the day. Respect me if you recognize the fact that I may not know all the answers. The same applies for your peers.

c) I have no exclusivity on intelligence. I learn from everyone.

d) Questions that appear stupid to you, or where the user should have thought of searching for the answer which is buried in some manual, should not have you admonish that user.* We are all trying our best.

e) Software authors write for joy, many put their heart and soul into their work, and therefore, think about criticism before issuing some.* If you have to, couch your criticism in postive ways, such as* "While using your software under condition xyz, it generated the following problem xxxx, is it possible that
this possibility was not envisioned in your initial design?

f) Finally, ask yourself if you would like to receive the criticism that you would deliver.

So, please, help the beginners, and if some software is malfunctioning, try to find the reason, and with kind words, contact the author.* You wil get more using an approach with honey than one with vinegar.

Leslie Satenstein
MSC mathematics,
Capacity Planning and Computer system modeling,
Hardware logic circuit designer
Compiler designer, interpreter designer,
ERP specialist, Project Manager,
40 years of writing and supporting software.
Teacher and now, linux hobbist.
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:26 AM
Ed Greshko
 
Default Decorum needs to be raised.

Leslie Satenstein wrote:
> I have been in IT for 40 years, and in that time I learned a lesson or two.
>
> a) Respect the other person. He is entitled to different ideas.
>
> b) I was once a beginner with lots to learn, and with only a fixed
> number of hours in the day. Respect me if you recognize the fact that I
> may not know all the answers. The same applies for your peers.

What do you propose be done with people that claim they know *much* more
than they actually do?

>
> c) I have no exclusivity on intelligence. I learn from everyone.
>
> d) Questions that appear stupid to you, or where the user should have
> thought of searching for the answer which is buried in some manual,
> should not have you admonish that user. We are all trying our best.
>
> e) Software authors write for joy, many put their heart and soul into
> their work, and therefore, think about criticism before issuing some.
> If you have to, couch your criticism in postive ways, such as "While
> using your software under condition xyz, it generated the following
> problem xxxx, is it possible that this possibility was not envisioned in
> your initial design?
>
> f) Finally, ask yourself if you would like to receive the criticism that
> you would deliver.
>
> So, please, help the beginners, and if some software is malfunctioning,
> try to find the reason, and with kind words, contact the author. You
> wil get more using an approach with honey than one with vinegar.
>
> Leslie Satenstein
> MSC mathematics,
> Capacity Planning and Computer system modeling,
> Hardware logic circuit designer
> Compiler designer, interpreter designer,
> ERP specialist, Project Manager,
> 40 years of writing and supporting software.
> Teacher and now, linux hobbist.
>


--
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
-- Dave Olson

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Old 01-04-2008, 02:43 AM
Cameron Simpson
 
Default Decorum needs to be raised.

On 04Jan2008 11:26, Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko@greshko.com> wrote:
| Leslie Satenstein wrote:
| > I have been in IT for 40 years, and in that time I learned a lesson or two.
| >
| > a) Respect the other person. He is entitled to different ideas.
| >
| > b) I was once a beginner with lots to learn, and with only a fixed
| > number of hours in the day. Respect me if you recognize the fact that I
| > may not know all the answers. The same applies for your peers.
|
| What do you propose be done with people that claim they know *much* more
| than they actually do?

You could ignore them instead of flaming them. My delete-thread key gets
regular use. I still need to duplicate GMail's mute-thread function...

I skip: boring topics, known flamewars, and threads I know I'll just be
inclined to flame on.

Do not feed the trolls.
--
Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> DoD#743
http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/

Men are four:
He who knows and knows that he knows; he is wise, follow him.
He who knows and knows not that he knows; he is asleep, wake him.
He who knows not and knows that he knows not; he is ignorant, teach him.
He who knows not and knows not that he knows not; he is a fool, spurn him!

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Old 01-04-2008, 03:22 AM
Lamar Owen
 
Default Decorum needs to be raised.

On Thursday 03 January 2008, Leslie Satenstein wrote:
> I have been in IT for 40 years, and in that time I learned a lesson or two.

[snip excellent advice]

> f) Finally, ask yourself if you would like to receive the criticism that
> you would deliver.

While my message to Karl might have seemed a tad harsh (and, to a degree it
was), I can't help but get bent out of shape when an esteemed member of the
Fedora project is essentially called stupid.

As to your point f, I would say plainly that, if I were to so seriously put my
foot in my mouth as to call a core developer of a project I use 'stupid' I
would expect to get a good chewing-out. And, for that matter, I would want
to get a good public on-list flame or two, as I would need to be straightened
out, because I certainly know that there are many things I don't know, and
there are things I will never know, because there are just so many things to
know.

> So, please, help the beginners, and if some software is malfunctioning, try
> to find the reason, and with kind words, contact the author. You wil get
> more using an approach with honey than one with vinegar.

In most cases this is true. There are exceptions where there is no honey
sweet enough to get a positive response when you're pointing out a bug or
other error, from users or developers.

But you're right; civility should be maintained. If I failed in maintaining a
civil manner in my reply to Karl, my apologies, as it was intended to be
civil, yet firm.
--
Lamar Owen
Chief Information Officer
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute
1 PARI Drive
Rosman, NC 28772
(828)862-5554
www.pari.edu

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