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Old 01-03-2008, 08:11 PM
Tim Alberts
 
Default Email delivery (sendmail->procmail->$HOME/mbox) with fallback

I want to configure email to deliver to ${HOME}/.mbox and I think I
understand that now. Configure /etc/procmailrc with:


MAILDIR=${HOME}/.mbox

Ultimately however, /home will be an NFS mount. I am wondering what
happens if that mount is not there when mail needs to be delivered. I
am reading that procmail will 'just create it' which seems bad.


I would like to configure procmail so that if the NFS mount is not
there, to just deliver to /var/mail/ (or /var/spool/mail) so that when I
get the NFS mount back, I believe I can use formail/procmail to later
get it from /var/mail to ${HOME}/.mbox. (If anyone has an example
configuration that does this, I'd love to see it)


or

To better understand my sendmail configuration, does the following line
mean:


FEATURE(local_procmail, `', `procmail -t -Y -a $h -d $u')dnl

that if email can't be delivered (because the directory doesn't exist),
it will just go back into the mqueue for sendmail to try and deliver
later? Is this a valid solution, or will sendmail just get overloaded
with mail that can't be delivered? 'man procmail' shows this via the -t
option if I read correctly.



In the end, clients can get their email with dovecot via pop3 or imap
(or Usermin).


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Old 01-03-2008, 08:26 PM
John Summerfield
 
Default Email delivery (sendmail->procmail->$HOME/mbox) with fallback

Tim Alberts wrote:
I want to configure email to deliver to ${HOME}/.mbox and I think I
understand that now. Configure /etc/procmailrc with:


MAILDIR=${HOME}/.mbox

Ultimately however, /home will be an NFS mount. I am wondering what
happens if that mount is not there when mail needs to be delivered. I
am reading that procmail will 'just create it' which seems bad.


I would like to configure procmail so that if the NFS mount is not
there, to just deliver to /var/mail/ (or /var/spool/mail) so that when I
get the NFS mount back, I believe I can use formail/procmail to later
get it from /var/mail to ${HOME}/.mbox. (If anyone has an example
configuration that does this, I'd love to see it)


or

To better understand my sendmail configuration, does the following line
mean:


FEATURE(local_procmail, `', `procmail -t -Y -a $h -d $u')dnl

that if email can't be delivered (because the directory doesn't exist),
it will just go back into the mqueue for sendmail to try and deliver
later? Is this a valid solution, or will sendmail just get overloaded
with mail that can't be delivered? 'man procmail' shows this via the -t
option if I read correctly.



In the end, clients can get their email with dovecot via pop3 or imap
(or Usermin).



This last is by far the easiest in your position; it's what I do.

You could muck around getting the nfs mounting automatically with
autofs, but installing sendmail+dovecot+usual-email-client just works.




--

Cheers
John

-- spambait
1aaaaaaa@coco.merseine.nu Z1aaaaaaa@coco.merseine.nu
-- Advice
http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375

You cannot reply off-list:-)

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Old 01-03-2008, 11:49 PM
Tim Alberts
 
Default Email delivery (sendmail->procmail->$HOME/mbox) with fallback

John Summerfield wrote:

Tim Alberts wrote:
I want to configure email to deliver to ${HOME}/.mbox and I think I
understand that now. Configure /etc/procmailrc with:


MAILDIR=${HOME}/.mbox

Ultimately however, /home will be an NFS mount. I am wondering what
happens if that mount is not there when mail needs to be delivered.
I am reading that procmail will 'just create it' which seems bad.


I would like to configure procmail so that if the NFS mount is not
there, to just deliver to /var/mail/ (or /var/spool/mail) so that
when I get the NFS mount back, I believe I can use formail/procmail
to later get it from /var/mail to ${HOME}/.mbox. (If anyone has an
example configuration that does this, I'd love to see it)


or

To better understand my sendmail configuration, does the following
line mean:


FEATURE(local_procmail, `', `procmail -t -Y -a $h -d $u')dnl

that if email can't be delivered (because the directory doesn't
exist), it will just go back into the mqueue for sendmail to try and
deliver later? Is this a valid solution, or will sendmail just get
overloaded with mail that can't be delivered? 'man procmail' shows
this via the -t option if I read correctly.



In the end, clients can get their email with dovecot via pop3 or imap
(or Usermin).



This last is by far the easiest in your position; it's what I do.

You could muck around getting the nfs mounting automatically with
autofs, but installing sendmail+dovecot+usual-email-client just works.





Sorry I'm not following. What's the easiest?

I'm moving to the NFS so I can have a central place for file and email
storage on a system with quality hardware RAID1 and ideally fast SAS
drives. Then the email server will run on a fast efficient system with
cheaper drive and can be easily moved from system to system when
hardware fails. This way, I don't end up with mbox's on several
computers to keep track of.


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Old 01-04-2008, 11:22 PM
John Summerfield
 
Default Email delivery (sendmail->procmail->$HOME/mbox) with fallback

Tim Alberts wrote:

John Summerfield wrote:

Tim Alberts wrote:
I want to configure email to deliver to ${HOME}/.mbox and I think I
understand that now. Configure /etc/procmailrc with:


MAILDIR=${HOME}/.mbox

Ultimately however, /home will be an NFS mount. I am wondering what
happens if that mount is not there when mail needs to be delivered.
I am reading that procmail will 'just create it' which seems bad.


I would like to configure procmail so that if the NFS mount is not
there, to just deliver to /var/mail/ (or /var/spool/mail) so that
when I get the NFS mount back, I believe I can use formail/procmail
to later get it from /var/mail to ${HOME}/.mbox. (If anyone has an
example configuration that does this, I'd love to see it)


or

To better understand my sendmail configuration, does the following
line mean:


FEATURE(local_procmail, `', `procmail -t -Y -a $h -d $u')dnl

that if email can't be delivered (because the directory doesn't
exist), it will just go back into the mqueue for sendmail to try and
deliver later? Is this a valid solution, or will sendmail just get
overloaded with mail that can't be delivered? 'man procmail' shows
this via the -t option if I read correctly.



In the end, clients can get their email with dovecot via pop3 or imap
(or Usermin).



This last is by far the easiest in your position; it's what I do.

You could muck around getting the nfs mounting automatically with
autofs, but installing sendmail+dovecot+usual-email-client just works.





Sorry I'm not following. What's the easiest?

I'm moving to the NFS so I can have a central place for file and email
storage on a system with quality hardware RAID1 and ideally fast SAS
drives. Then the email server will run on a fast efficient system with
cheaper drive and can be easily moved from system to system when
hardware fails. This way, I don't end up with mbox's on several
computers to keep track of.




Are you serious? You are running mission-critical applications on the
second least reliable software offering from the RHL family?


Use good hardware, good software (RHEL or a clone), IMAP and not POP3,
and use one of the reliable RAID (1, 4 or 5) choices for your mail (and
other critical data) storage.


Even if a dodgy Fedora software update doesn't get you, you still have
to contend with frequent upgrades of the software.


Note that RAID _can_ include a network block device (nbd or enhanced nbd
drivers), and drbd also provided RAID1 over a network, and is tolerant
of breaks in connectivity.


note that LVM can provide hot backups.

One trick I've hard of is to define a firewire drive (presumably USB or
other hotplug drive) would do as part of a mirror pair. Backup goes
something like this:

Plug it in
Resync.
Detach (I don't recall the fine details here)
Unplug.

Google for terms such as "reliable linux" "high availability linux"
"linux cluster" etc for more details.


ps
My information is fairly old (2.4 kernels). Google can update you.




--

Cheers
John

-- spambait
1aaaaaaa@coco.merseine.nu Z1aaaaaaa@coco.merseine.nu
-- Advice
http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375

You cannot reply off-list:-)

--
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To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 01-07-2008, 10:36 PM
Tim Alberts
 
Default Email delivery (sendmail->procmail->$HOME/mbox) with fallback

John Summerfield wrote:


Are you serious? You are running mission-critical applications on the
second least reliable software offering from the RHL family?
I'm guessing you don't work in advertising for Red Hat, Fedora, or Linux
in general?





Use good hardware, good software (RHEL or a clone), IMAP and not POP3,
and use one of the reliable RAID (1, 4 or 5) choices for your mail
(and other critical data) storage.
Been using POP3 forever with no problems (except some Mac problems with
Dovecot). Have RAID1 software setup for years as well. Keep getting
drive failures and looking back into hardware RAID with high quality
equipment (as mentioned before).




Even if a dodgy Fedora software update doesn't get you, you still have
to contend with frequent upgrades of the software.
Yes, I've dealt with 'dodgy' updates and config files being lost by auto
updates, and bug fixes that mess things up that worked fine. For the
price, it has been acceptable (at least to the people in charge of the
purse strings).




Note that RAID _can_ include a network block device (nbd or enhanced
nbd drivers), and drbd also provided RAID1 over a network, and is
tolerant of breaks in connectivity.


note that LVM can provide hot backups.





One trick I've hard of is to define a firewire drive (presumably USB
or other hotplug drive) would do as part of a mirror pair. Backup goes
something like this:

Plug it in
Resync.
Detach (I don't recall the fine details here)
Unplug.
Used removable drive trays for rsync backups without the RAID. Now we
got backup systems that are rsync backed up and ready to run in
failures. However, any email that was delivered between the last rsync
and the failure gets lost temporarily or permanently. Hence my idea for
NFS mount to quality RAID1




Google for terms such as "reliable linux" "high availability linux"
"linux cluster" etc for more details.
Google'd and Yahoo'd...seen hundreds of ideas mostly based on
heartbeat. In fact I most recently was looking into Red Hat's Global
File System and clustering:


http://www.redhat.com/gfs/
http://www.redhat.com/cluster_suite/

Trying to figure out how Red Hat is accomplishing these things with open
source, or if they are adding their own proprietary background stuff.




All-in-all, fun discussion, but completely off topic from my original
post and still doesn't answer my question.


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Old 01-07-2008, 10:45 PM
John Summerfield
 
Default Email delivery (sendmail->procmail->$HOME/mbox) with fallback

Tim Alberts wrote:

John Summerfield wrote:


Are you serious? You are running mission-critical applications on the
second least reliable software offering from the RHL family?
I'm guessing you don't work in advertising for Red Hat, Fedora, or Linux
in general?


I don't.





Use good hardware, good software (RHEL or a clone), IMAP and not POP3,
and use one of the reliable RAID (1, 4 or 5) choices for your mail
(and other critical data) storage.
Been using POP3 forever with no problems (except some Mac problems with


You do have a problem, your mail is scattered all over the place. imap
keeps it on the server.



Dovecot). Have RAID1 software setup for years as well. Keep getting
drive failures and looking back into hardware RAID with high quality
equipment (as mentioned before).




Even if a dodgy Fedora software update doesn't get you, you still have
to contend with frequent upgrades of the software.
Yes, I've dealt with 'dodgy' updates and config files being lost by auto
updates, and bug fixes that mess things up that worked fine. For the
price, it has been acceptable (at least to the people in charge of the
purse strings).


Price a problem? CentOS is free of charge. It also costs less.





Note that RAID _can_ include a network block device (nbd or enhanced
nbd drivers), and drbd also provided RAID1 over a network, and is
tolerant of breaks in connectivity.


note that LVM can provide hot backups.





One trick I've hard of is to define a firewire drive (presumably USB
or other hotplug drive) would do as part of a mirror pair. Backup goes
something like this:

Plug it in
Resync.
Detach (I don't recall the fine details here)
Unplug.
Used removable drive trays for rsync backups without the RAID. Now we
got backup systems that are rsync backed up and ready to run in
failures. However, any email that was delivered between the last rsync
and the failure gets lost temporarily or permanently. Hence my idea for
NFS mount to quality RAID1


NFS has its own problems. enbd and drdb are better than rsync.




Google for terms such as "reliable linux" "high availability linux"
"linux cluster" etc for more details.
Google'd and Yahoo'd...seen hundreds of ideas mostly based on
heartbeat. In fact I most recently was looking into Red Hat's Global
File System and clustering:


http://www.redhat.com/gfs/
http://www.redhat.com/cluster_suite/

Trying to figure out how Red Hat is accomplishing these things with open
source, or if they are adding their own proprietary background stuff.


Look at CentOS. If it's in that (I believe it is) then it's OSS.




All-in-all, fun discussion, but completely off topic from my original
post and still doesn't answer my question.


I'm more concerned with the underlying problem than with your proposed
solution.


Do you want the best solution?

--

Cheers
John

-- spambait
1aaaaaaa@coco.merseine.nu Z1aaaaaaa@coco.merseine.nu
-- Advice
http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375

You cannot reply off-list:-)

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 01-07-2008, 11:08 PM
Tim Alberts
 
Default Email delivery (sendmail->procmail->$HOME/mbox) with fallback

John Summerfield wrote:
Use good hardware, good software (RHEL or a clone), IMAP and not
POP3, and use one of the reliable RAID (1, 4 or 5) choices for your
mail (and other critical data) storage.
Been using POP3 forever with no problems (except some Mac problems with


You do have a problem, your mail is scattered all over the place. imap
keeps it on the server.
That's a matter of perspective. If they POP3 it off my server, it's
their problem, not mine. If I use IMAP, store it on the server, then if
one server crashes, I switch to a backup with an old rsync and people
get mail marked as new that they already read, or get multiples of the
same mail. Meanwhile, email is lost on the original system.


Dovecot). Have RAID1 software setup for years as well. Keep getting
drive failures and looking back into hardware RAID with high quality
equipment (as mentioned before).




Even if a dodgy Fedora software update doesn't get you, you still
have to contend with frequent upgrades of the software.
Yes, I've dealt with 'dodgy' updates and config files being lost by
auto updates, and bug fixes that mess things up that worked fine.
For the price, it has been acceptable (at least to the people in
charge of the purse strings).


Price a problem? CentOS is free of charge. It also costs less.
OK, Fedora is free. I'm talking about not paying licensing for Red Hat
Enterprise, Suse Enterprise etc. Your saying CentOS is far more
reliable than Fedora? They're all Linux right? Fedora is on the edge
of development, I understand that, but that seems to be a good place,
latest features, latest patches, latest security fixes. Still get
security patches and updates with CentOS right? What are you saying is
the difference?




Note that RAID _can_ include a network block device (nbd or enhanced
nbd drivers), and drbd also provided RAID1 over a network, and is
tolerant of breaks in connectivity.


note that LVM can provide hot backups.





One trick I've hard of is to define a firewire drive (presumably USB
or other hotplug drive) would do as part of a mirror pair. Backup
goes something like this:

Plug it in
Resync.
Detach (I don't recall the fine details here)
Unplug.
Used removable drive trays for rsync backups without the RAID. Now we
got backup systems that are rsync backed up and ready to run in
failures. However, any email that was delivered between the last
rsync and the failure gets lost temporarily or permanently. Hence my
idea for NFS mount to quality RAID1


NFS has its own problems. enbd and drdb are better than rsync.


NFS is not RAID or backup. I'm not sure I've explained clearly what my
idea is. <explanation below>







Google for terms such as "reliable linux" "high availability linux"
"linux cluster" etc for more details.
Google'd and Yahoo'd...seen hundreds of ideas mostly based on
heartbeat. In fact I most recently was looking into Red Hat's Global
File System and clustering:


http://www.redhat.com/gfs/
http://www.redhat.com/cluster_suite/

Trying to figure out how Red Hat is accomplishing these things with
open source, or if they are adding their own proprietary background
stuff.


Look at CentOS. If it's in that (I believe it is) then it's OSS.




All-in-all, fun discussion, but completely off topic from my original
post and still doesn't answer my question.


I'm more concerned with the underlying problem than with your proposed
solution.

What exactly do you see as the 'underlying problem'?


Do you want the best solution?


Well that's just silly to ask now isn't it?




My idea is to use NFS to mount another file server that has a quality
hardware RAID1 solution with hot swap drives ideally. Then the primary
mail application server runs a minimal drive to boot the OS and start
the email program. I NFS mount the file server for mail storage. This
way, if the primary mail server fails, a second application server
(probably shared with the web or domain server) can takeover with the
file system right where the primary mail server ended.




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Old 01-07-2008, 11:21 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Email delivery (sendmail->procmail->$HOME/mbox) with fallback

Tim Alberts wrote:


Price a problem? CentOS is free of charge. It also costs less.
OK, Fedora is free.


But you have to reinstall a new version every year to keep getting
security updates.


I'm talking about not paying licensing for Red Hat
Enterprise, Suse Enterprise etc. Your saying CentOS is far more
reliable than Fedora? They're all Linux right? Fedora is on the edge
of development, I understand that, but that seems to be a good place,
latest features, latest patches, latest security fixes. Still get
security patches and updates with CentOS right? What are you saying is
the difference?


Centos is rebuilt from RHEL source rpms, minus the trademarked name and
artwork. And it inherits the 7-year security/bug fix cycle so you don't
have to reinstall all the time unless you want different features.
Centos5 has approximately the same application versions you would have
found on fedora FC6.


--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com



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Old 01-08-2008, 12:02 AM
Tim Alberts
 
Default Email delivery (sendmail->procmail->$HOME/mbox) with fallback

John Summerfield wrote:


Google for terms such as "reliable linux" "high availability linux"
"linux cluster" etc for more details.
Google'd and Yahoo'd...seen hundreds of ideas mostly based on
heartbeat. In fact I most recently was looking into Red Hat's Global
File System and clustering:


http://www.redhat.com/gfs/
http://www.redhat.com/cluster_suite/

Trying to figure out how Red Hat is accomplishing these things with
open source, or if they are adding their own proprietary background
stuff.


Look at CentOS. If it's in that (I believe it is) then it's OSS.


Now completely off topic..I just read a bit on CentOS website. Am I
correct in thinking that they're litterally redistributing what RedHat
Enterprise is? Even their documentation is cut/paste from RedHat with
RedHat logo's. I love the phrase they use 'prominent North American
Enterprise Linux vendor'.


However this seems to answer my question about what RedHat Enterprise
really is..all open source.


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Old 01-08-2008, 12:08 AM
Craig White
 
Default Email delivery (sendmail->procmail->$HOME/mbox) with fallback

On Mon, 2008-01-07 at 17:02 -0800, Tim Alberts wrote:
> John Summerfield wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Google for terms such as "reliable linux" "high availability linux"
> >>> "linux cluster" etc for more details.
> >> Google'd and Yahoo'd...seen hundreds of ideas mostly based on
> >> heartbeat. In fact I most recently was looking into Red Hat's Global
> >> File System and clustering:
> >>
> >> http://www.redhat.com/gfs/
> >> http://www.redhat.com/cluster_suite/
> >>
> >> Trying to figure out how Red Hat is accomplishing these things with
> >> open source, or if they are adding their own proprietary background
> >> stuff.
> >
> > Look at CentOS. If it's in that (I believe it is) then it's OSS.
>
> Now completely off topic..I just read a bit on CentOS website. Am I
> correct in thinking that they're litterally redistributing what RedHat
> Enterprise is? Even their documentation is cut/paste from RedHat with
> RedHat logo's. I love the phrase they use 'prominent North American
> Enterprise Linux vendor'.
>
> However this seems to answer my question about what RedHat Enterprise
> really is..all open source.
----
This is a fedora list. If you have CentOS questions, bring them to
CentOS list.
_______________________________________________
CentOS mailing list
http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

Craig

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