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Old 01-01-2008, 10:17 AM
Gilboa Davara
 
Default CD-less upgrade (Was: BlueTooth Issues)

On Mon, 2007-12-31 at 18:56 -0800, Donald Reader wrote:
> Thank You everyone
>
> First I must apologize for the post as frustration got the best of me.
> I have been trying to
> read up on installing without physically burning the media and
> hopefully will be able to
> do that before long as for now I have a client that is going to be
> doing a server move and
> can't afford for anything to go wrong with a new install at this time.
>
> Some good news is I did get a connection finally with the headset now
> all I have to do is figure
> out how to get the audio services up and running so I can use them
> LOL.
>
> To explain a little this is the very first time I have ever posted to
> a list for any help as I have always
> been gun shy of the fact that I have read lots of lists and forums
> where questions get answered with
> Read The Freaking Manual or upgrade system to the newest. It just
> seemed that is the way it was headed
> in my eyes. Again I apologize to the whole list and thank everyone for
> the responses
>
> Don

In theory, you can (re)install/upgrade fedora without burning a single
CD.

0. Backup. A faulty upgrade may kill your data. I'm serious. (And F8's
upgrade is known to be, err, sensitive...). Keep in mind that in
general, a fresh install (no matter what OS you are using) tends to work
better (cleaner, faster, etc) then an upgrade.

1. Download the vmlinuz and initrd.img files from any fedora mirror
(E.g. [1]) and copy them to your /boot directory.

2. Open (as root) /etc/grub.conf, and add the following entry using one
of your existing grub entries as template:

title Fedora 8 upgrade
root (hd0,0)
kernel /vmlinuz askmethod
initrd /initrd.img

3. Save the URL from which you downloaded the files. (E.g. [2]) Write it
on a piece of paper.

4. Configure the network device.

5. Select HTTP installation, type the download URL.

6. Upgrade/install.

- Gilboa

(x86_64)
[1]
http://mirrors.kernel.org/fedora/releases/8/Fedora/x86_64/os/isolinux/
[2] http://mirrors.kernel.org/fedora/releases/8/Fedora/x86_64/os/


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Old 01-01-2008, 11:40 AM
Timothy Murphy
 
Default CD-less upgrade (Was: BlueTooth Issues)

Gilboa Davara wrote:

> 0. Backup. A faulty upgrade may kill your data. I'm serious. (And F8's
> upgrade is known to be, err, sensitive...). Keep in mind that in
> general, a fresh install (no matter what OS you are using) tends to work
> better (cleaner, faster, etc) then an upgrade.

I completely disagree.
Upgrade and install both work exactly the same.
Have you actually tried both, or do you just _know_?

I don't know what you mean by "your data",
but /home should be on a separate partition,
not affected by upgrade or install.

As I recall, the OP was worried that the new system might not work.
In that case he would be better advised to do an upgrade, IMHO.
He still has the chance to do a clean install if there is a problem.
In other words, he gets two bites at the cherry.

A better solution, if he has the space,
is to do a clean install on another partition,
so that old and new systems are both available.

Personally, I would download and burn the KDE Live CD,
which will give some idea if Fedora 8 will run on his system.

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

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Old 01-01-2008, 12:20 PM
Gilboa Davara
 
Default CD-less upgrade (Was: BlueTooth Issues)

On Tue, 2008-01-01 at 13:40 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> Gilboa Davara wrote:
>
> > 0. Backup. A faulty upgrade may kill your data. I'm serious. (And F8's
> > upgrade is known to be, err, sensitive...). Keep in mind that in
> > general, a fresh install (no matter what OS you are using) tends to work
> > better (cleaner, faster, etc) then an upgrade.
>
> I completely disagree.
> Upgrade and install both work exactly the same.
> Have you actually tried both, or do you just _know_?

Know. (dep-solve bug)

... Beyond that, I once (RH8?) suffered from a kernel OOPS during an
upgrade - left me with a dead OS. Since then, I never attempted to do an
upgrade on a live system. (Though I continue to test the upgrade
procedure on VM's for the sake of my co-workers)

Other then that, doing a fresh install + manual migration (configuration
files, etc) is actually faster then the upgrade option. (And gives you a
cleaner OS - especially if you are using 3'rd party repositories.)

P.S. I once lost a Debian installation due to a simple upgrade. (3->4)
This is not a Fedora/RH-only problem.

>
> I don't know what you mean by "your data",
> but /home should be on a separate partition,
> not affected by upgrade or install.

Doing -anything- on live OS (be that upgrade, or risky maintenance)
without a recent backup is a job-altering-decision.

Lose all your data once (due to a failed upgrade/installation/kernel
crash) and you'll never make this mistake again.

>
> As I recall, the OP was worried that the new system might not work.
> In that case he would be better advised to do an upgrade, IMHO.
> He still has the chance to do a clean install if there is a problem.
> In other words, he gets two bites at the cherry.
>
> A better solution, if he has the space,
> is to do a clean install on another partition,
> so that old and new systems are both available.

As I said, it's far easier (... and faster!) to do a fresh install on a
spare partition and migrate all the configuration files to the new
installation.

It usually takes me ~90 minutes (including the actual installation over
NFS) to switch from F-N to F-N+1.

>
> Personally, I would download and burn the KDE Live CD,
> which will give some idea if Fedora 8 will run on his system.

Doubt it.
The basic LiveCD is radically different from a fully updated (and well
configured) F8 installation.

- Gilboa

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Old 01-01-2008, 03:02 PM
"G.Wolfe Woodbury"
 
Default CD-less upgrade (Was: BlueTooth Issues)

Gilboa Davara wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-01-01 at 13:40 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>> Gilboa Davara wrote:
>>
>>> 0. Backup. A faulty upgrade may kill your data. I'm serious. (And F8's
>>> upgrade is known to be, err, sensitive...). Keep in mind that in
>>> general, a fresh install (no matter what OS you are using) tends to work
>>> better (cleaner, faster, etc) then an upgrade.
>> I completely disagree.
>> Upgrade and install both work exactly the same.
>> Have you actually tried both, or do you just _know_?
>
> Know. (dep-solve bug)
<snip>
>
> As I said, it's far easier (... and faster!) to do a fresh install on a
> spare partition and migrate all the configuration files to the new
> installation.

I have to agree with Gilboa here. An upgrade installs the new packages
and then removes the old packages, while an install wipes the selected
filesystems and simply installs into the clean space.

This solves several nagging problems that can effect an upgraded system.

As for backup, the minimal set of stuff that really requires a backup
are: /etc #Configuration data
/var #spool, www, ftp and such
/home #if not on a separate file system that can be preserved
/usr/local #again, if not on a separate filesystem

The remaining filesystems that should usually be on mounted sections
(root, usr, srv, usr, boot) can be wiped/reformatted.

I will note that the "default" filesystem layout selected by the F8
installer (anaconda version) is *not* quite as robust as it could be.
It seems too much like another commercial OS in that it only makes two
filesystems (boot and root) and crams everything together in root. This
requires the user to make full backups at upgrade time.

At a minimum I recommend three partitions: boot, root and home
At "best" I use: root, boot, usr, usr/local, home, var, tmp, srv

There are good reasons for such separation, and there are some standard
recommendations for sizes, but that is another discussion.

--
Wolfe

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Old 01-01-2008, 08:19 PM
Tim
 
Default CD-less upgrade (Was: BlueTooth Issues)

On Tue, 2008-01-01 at 11:02 -0500, G.Wolfe Woodbury wrote:
> I will note that the "default" filesystem layout selected by the F8
> installer (anaconda version) is *not* quite as robust as it could be.

Nods...

> It seems too much like another commercial OS in that it only makes two
> filesystems (boot and root) and crams everything together in root.
> This requires the user to make full backups at upgrade time.

Not really. You can use a backup tool that lets you pick directories to
backup, and just back up the required parts of the tree, whether they're
separate partions, or not.

--
[tim@bigblack ~]$ uname -ipr
2.6.23.1-10.fc7 i686 i386

Using FC 4, 5, 6 & 7, plus CentOS 5. Today, it's FC7.

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.



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Old 01-01-2008, 08:33 PM
Aaron Konstam
 
Default CD-less upgrade (Was: BlueTooth Issues)

<snip>
> >
> > As I said, it's far easier (... and faster!) to do a fresh install on a
> > spare partition and migrate all the configuration files to the new
> > installation.
>
> I have to agree with Gilboa here. An upgrade installs the new packages
> and then removes the old packages, while an install wipes the selected
> filesystems and simply installs into the clean space.
>
> This solves several nagging problems that can effect an upgraded system.
>
> As for backup, the minimal set of stuff that really requires a backup
> are: /etc #Configuration data
> /var #spool, www, ftp and such
> /home #if not on a separate file system that can be preserved
> /usr/local #again, if not on a separate filesystem
>
> The remaining filesystems that should usually be on mounted sections
> (root, usr, srv, usr, boot) can be wiped/reformatted.
>
> I will note that the "default" filesystem layout selected by the F8
> installer (anaconda version) is *not* quite as robust as it could be.
> It seems too much like another commercial OS in that it only makes two
> filesystems (boot and root) and crams everything together in root. This
> requires the user to make full backups at upgrade time.
The above statement is not true. I have only on / filesystem and I back up
/home /root /etc/ and anything else I want to backup using tar before
each upgrade. This is especially useful when you want to restore your
old home directory in the directory the installed created. Untarring
with the -k option does not overwrite the files already existing in the
directory so the new versions of the gnome configuration files (for
example) are preserved.
> At a minimum I recommend three partitions: boot, root and home
> At "best" I use: root, boot, usr, usr/local, home, var, tmp, srv
>
> There are good reasons for such separation, and there are some standard
> recommendations for sizes, but that is another discussion.
>
> --
> Wolfe
>
--
================================================== =====================
A wise person makes his own decisions, a weak one obeys public opinion.
-- Chinese proverb
================================================== =====================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam@sbcglobal.net

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