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Old 12-30-2007, 09:51 PM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default A pretty please (regrading Fedora 9 theme)

Hi,
first to introduce myself. I'm 29 years old fiber-optics technician
and a linux geek from Croatia. I used fedora since came out but for my
primary desktop since FC5 (i used openSUSE before and Mandriva before
that, ubuntu just doesn't work for me). I'm also a amateur
photographer and have worked with different artists as a critic for
last 10 years.

This is really hard for me to say and I apologize in advance because
all of Fedora Artwork team does great job, but I really have to say
what I think.

I have seen this:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F9Themes/Waves
and it frightens me if this is going to be the Fedora 9 theme... or
anything near this. If these are only sketches then ok. But this bring
me back to Fedora 8 theme proposal when I saw current infinity theme
proposed and I thought it will never pass quality check - how was I
surprised when I booted Fedora 8 for the first time.

I know that some people are really satisfied with Fedora 8 theme, and
that different people have different tastes but still I feel fedora 8
theme as too bland, too simple (and I love zen simple design!) and
just too plain. FC5 baloons were nice, FC6 DNA theme was amazing!, F7
hot baloons were cool but I just can't say anything nice about F8
Infinity.

I used Fedora as my primary work desktop since FC5 and for work also
(since FC6) and I upgrade my home systems always to latest Fedora -
this is the only wallpaper I changed from default and I believe that
says a lot.

Unfortunately, I have no creativity talent (except photography) and I
cannot contribute directly except as an constructive critic.

Please, please, pretty please go with a more bold wallpaper theme this time.

Thank you once more for all the work you have given to Fedora project
and I hope you accept these comments as constructive because this is
my intention.

Valent.

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Old 12-30-2007, 10:09 PM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default A pretty please (regrading Fedora 9 theme)

On 12/30/07, Valent Turkovic <valent.turkovic@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> first to introduce myself. I'm 29 years old fiber-optics technician
> and a linux geek from Croatia. I used fedora since came out but for my
> primary desktop since FC5 (i used openSUSE before and Mandriva before
> that, ubuntu just doesn't work for me). I'm also a amateur
> photographer and have worked with different artists as a critic for
> last 10 years.
>
> This is really hard for me to say and I apologize in advance because
> all of Fedora Artwork team does great job, but I really have to say
> what I think.
>
> I have seen this:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F9Themes/Waves
> and it frightens me if this is going to be the Fedora 9 theme... or
> anything near this. If these are only sketches then ok. But this bring
> me back to Fedora 8 theme proposal when I saw current infinity theme
> proposed and I thought it will never pass quality check - how was I
> surprised when I booted Fedora 8 for the first time.
>
> I know that some people are really satisfied with Fedora 8 theme, and
> that different people have different tastes but still I feel fedora 8
> theme as too bland, too simple (and I love zen simple design!) and
> just too plain. FC5 baloons were nice, FC6 DNA theme was amazing!, F7
> hot baloons were cool but I just can't say anything nice about F8
> Infinity.
>
> I used Fedora as my primary work desktop since FC5 and for work also
> (since FC6) and I upgrade my home systems always to latest Fedora -
> this is the only wallpaper I changed from default and I believe that
> says a lot.
>
> Unfortunately, I have no creativity talent (except photography) and I
> cannot contribute directly except as an constructive critic.
>
> Please, please, pretty please go with a more bold wallpaper theme this time.
>
> Thank you once more for all the work you have given to Fedora project
> and I hope you accept these comments as constructive because this is
> my intention.
>
> Valent.

Here are one audio review which also says artwork for Fedora 8 is lacking:
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/index.php/archives/fedora-8-audio-review/

and one random forum comment:
"Artwork quite poor compared to version 7."
http://linuxmint.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=43139#p43139

--
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linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
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Old 12-30-2007, 10:19 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default A pretty please (regrading Fedora 9 theme)

Valent Turkovic wrote:


I have seen this:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F9Themes/Waves
and it frightens me if this is going to be the Fedora 9 theme... or
anything near this. If these are only sketches then ok.


http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F9Themes clearly highlights that
these are theme *concepts* and a couple of previous releases have
followed the same schedule.


If you have ideas, feel free to propose more concepts like these. You
don't have to be an artist to do that but eventually contributions will
decide how the final artwork is going to look like.


Rahul

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Old 12-31-2007, 02:12 AM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default A pretty please (regrading Fedora 9 theme)

On Dec 30, 2007 2:09 PM, Valent Turkovic <valent.turkovic@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here are one audio review which also says artwork for Fedora 8 is lacking:
> http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/index.php/archives/fedora-8-audio-review/
>
> and one random forum comment:
> "Artwork quite poor compared to version 7."
> http://linuxmint.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=43139#p43139


Valent, dragging out points of view concerning personal taste
concerning artwork is frankly just pointless. And I personally think
it undermines what you actually want to accomplish.
On matters of style you simply will not please everyone. You can't.
You have to have a specific design goal in mind and stick with it.
Just saying i want something bold or a i want something more abstract
doesn't really mean anything, you aren't convincing anyone to change
their minds because you aren't presenting a compelling design focus by
just stating an opinion about what style you would prefer.

Why is bold better exactly? Certainly from a usability standpoint a
bold artistic design is a horrible horrible idea. Bold or busy
default desktop backgrounds take the focus away from other things on
the desktop and make it harder to visually locate desktop icons and
associated text for some people. In that sense the F8 desktop
background was actually better than previous default backgrounds
exactly because it was relatively 'bland' and stayed out of the way.
The default F8 desktop background does exactly what it's asked to
do...be in the background.

Was F8's artwork distinctive? Unquestionably yes. It's not confusable
with previous Fedora releases of recent vintage and its not confusing
with other Linux distributions of note, nor major proprietary OS
systems that would be running on the same hardware. Since there is no
we can artistically please everyone, we must be content with being
distinctive.

On top of that, I think the subtle visual nature is perfect for a
first experiment with the time-based rotation technology that was
introduced in nautilus. The new time-changing colorscape of the
wallpaper becomes the major visual focus because the image itself is
spartan. I'm fine with that. F7's photorealistic balloons would
have been much harder to rotate and look attractive. The same with
F6's glassy rendered DNA strands.

That being said, i think this time around it would be good to be less
subtle in an effort to make sure F8 is distinctive from F9. I think
cel-shading of 3-D rendered version of one of the Freedom draft
sketchs might strike a reasonable balance, the cel-shading would
provide a bit 'bolder' visual look but it would not be as visually
'noisy' as the photo-releastic F7 balloons, nor a repeat of the
glassy/plasticy-rendered 3-D DNA theme and you could still use a time
based rotation technology.


-jef"How many people would buy a Toyota Prius, if all of them came
standard with eye-popping flaming skull decals on the hood and side
panels? Sometimes understated is exactly the default paint job you
want."spaleta

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Old 12-31-2007, 11:14 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default A pretty please (regrading Fedora 9 theme)

Valent Turkovic wrote:
> Here are one audio review which also says artwork for Fedora 8 is lacking:
> http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/index.php/archives/fedora-8-audio-review/
>
> and one random forum comment:
> "Artwork quite poor compared to version 7."
> http://linuxmint.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=43139#p43139

I could point at a lot more reviews and magazine articles that saw it as
an improvement. It's artwork, it's subjective, you can't please everyone
and if you do you're probably doing something wrong. For every negative
comment I've seen or heard about the F8 theme, I've seen 9 or 10
positive ones.

The wallpaper could have been more exciting, yes. The rest of the
artwork I think is better with a more simple design, though, without too
much in-your-face branding. We don't want the distro to be akin to an
overly gaudy person wearing way too much makeup, you know?

~m

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Old 01-01-2008, 09:36 PM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default A pretty please (regrading Fedora 9 theme)

On 1/1/08, Máirín Duffy <duffy@redhat.com> wrote:
> Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > Here are one audio review which also says artwork for Fedora 8 is lacking:
> > http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/index.php/archives/fedora-8-audio-review/
> >
> > and one random forum comment:
> > "Artwork quite poor compared to version 7."
> > http://linuxmint.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=43139#p43139
>
> I could point at a lot more reviews and magazine articles that saw it as
> an improvement. It's artwork, it's subjective, you can't please everyone
> and if you do you're probably doing something wrong. For every negative
> comment I've seen or heard about the F8 theme, I've seen 9 or 10
> positive ones.

Did you listen to Linux Action Show podcast review in the link that is
provided? They also mention icons and few other issues, but best
listen to it if you can.

> The wallpaper could have been more exciting, yes. The rest of the
> artwork I think is better with a more simple design, though, without too
> much in-your-face branding. We don't want the distro to be akin to an
> overly gaudy person wearing way too much makeup, you know?

I see your point of view and I understand it. I must tell you that I
don't have anything againgst Fedora design but I honestly don't see
any big difference between Fedora 6 (which I run at work) and Fedora 8
which I run at home. If I took screenshots and compared them I would
probably see differences but to an ordinary user and not art team who
works on those changes they are so subtle that we don't see them. Only
real difference we users actually see is the wallpaper.

I use fedora desktop around 10h per day but I look at firefox, gaim
and openoffice and not widgets. The parts of the Gnome I look the most
are top and bottom panels and of course wallpaper...

> ~m

Could I trouble you for an oppinion?
Did you have an opportunity to run LinuxMint? If not please look at
this screenshot:
http://www.linuxmint.com/img/screenshots/celena/1024/mintmenu.png

What do you think about the theme on Gnome panels. I believe that
fedora hasn't changer it's... maybe ever, no? What is your opinion on
that? I must admit that the LinuxMint design team really surprised
me... they had some "experiments" with the look of their distro that
didn't came out well in some previous version, but I must admit that I
really love the panels - it is subtle but still looks very nice.

Thank you,
Valent.

--
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic

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Old 01-01-2008, 09:55 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default A pretty please (regrading Fedora 9 theme)

Valent Turkovic wrote:
> Did you listen to Linux Action Show podcast review in the link that is
> provided? They also mention icons and few other issues, but best
> listen to it if you can.

Sorry, I didn't, I don't have much time these days. A summary of actual
issues brought up would be helpful.

>> The wallpaper could have been more exciting, yes. The rest of the
>> artwork I think is better with a more simple design, though, without too
>> much in-your-face branding. We don't want the distro to be akin to an
>> overly gaudy person wearing way too much makeup, you know?
>
> I see your point of view and I understand it. I must tell you that I
> don't have anything againgst Fedora design but I honestly don't see
> any big difference between Fedora 6 (which I run at work) and Fedora 8
> which I run at home.

You don't see a difference between the artwork in Fedora 6 and Fedora 8?
You must be in the far minority. Fedora 6 had much darker colored
artwork than Fedora 8, and it was much more heavily branded.

> If I took screenshots and compared them I would
> probably see differences but to an ordinary user and not art team who
> works on those changes they are so subtle that we don't see them. Only
> real difference we users actually see is the wallpaper.

I think maybe you're talking more about GTK+ and metacity themes, while
in our discussion about the Fedora 9 artwork we are talking about the
artwork - the wallpaper, splash screens, etc. The former hasn't changed
very much no, the latter has changed dramatically and I am not sure how
you could actually argue that any differently.

> I use fedora desktop around 10h per day but I look at firefox, gaim
> and openoffice and not widgets. The parts of the Gnome I look the most
> are top and bottom panels and of course wallpaper...

Okay, that is different than the artwork we are discussing for sure. If
you have a GTK+ and metacity theme you would like to propose for
consideration in F9 that would be great. Artwork though is a very
different process. I am not sure though how you would confuse Martin's
sketches of water waves with designs for GTK+ and metacity themes, that
seems a bit of a leap.

> Could I trouble you for an oppinion?
> Did you have an opportunity to run LinuxMint? If not please look at
> this screenshot:
> http://www.linuxmint.com/img/screenshots/celena/1024/mintmenu.png
>
> What do you think about the theme on Gnome panels. I believe that
> fedora hasn't changer it's... maybe ever, no? What is your opinion on
> that? I must admit that the LinuxMint design team really surprised
> me... they had some "experiments" with the look of their distro that
> didn't came out well in some previous version, but I must admit that I
> really love the panels - it is subtle but still looks very nice.

That looks like it's the applications menu from SuSE. I don't really
like it from a usability POV - it appears to overwhelm the user with
choices. It also looks a bit too much like Windows I think. I think the
menu we have in Fedora is much easier and less overwhelming to use but I
guess I would have to see or run some comparative usability studies to
know if the SuSE-style menu has a negative impact on usability. (I am
guessing so from a comparison of the number items presented. Less items
tend to be easier to work with.)

~m

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Old 01-02-2008, 07:14 AM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default A pretty please (regrading Fedora 9 theme)

On 1/1/08, Máirín Duffy <duffy@redhat.com> wrote:
> Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > Did you listen to Linux Action Show podcast review in the link that is
> > provided? They also mention icons and few other issues, but best
> > listen to it if you can.
>
> Sorry, I didn't, I don't have much time these days. A summary of actual
> issues brought up would be helpful.
>
> >> The wallpaper could have been more exciting, yes. The rest of the
> >> artwork I think is better with a more simple design, though, without too
> >> much in-your-face branding. We don't want the distro to be akin to an
> >> overly gaudy person wearing way too much makeup, you know?
> >
> > I see your point of view and I understand it. I must tell you that I
> > don't have anything againgst Fedora design but I honestly don't see
> > any big difference between Fedora 6 (which I run at work) and Fedora 8
> > which I run at home.
>
> You don't see a difference between the artwork in Fedora 6 and Fedora 8?
> You must be in the far minority. Fedora 6 had much darker colored
> artwork than Fedora 8, and it was much more heavily branded.


http://bayimg.com/MAiagaABL
http://bayimg.com/MAIAIaaBL

Look at these two screenshots, can you guess which is FC6 and which is
F8? You probably can... but I would bet lot's of people wouldn't. One
is my work FC6 desktop and other is my home Fedora 8.


> > If I took screenshots and compared them I would
> > probably see differences but to an ordinary user and not art team who
> > works on those changes they are so subtle that we don't see them. Only
> > real difference we users actually see is the wallpaper.
>
> I think maybe you're talking more about GTK+ and metacity themes, while
> in our discussion about the Fedora 9 artwork we are talking about the
> artwork - the wallpaper, splash screens, etc. The former hasn't changed
> very much no, the latter has changed dramatically and I am not sure how
> you could actually argue that any differently.

Yes Sorry for the confusion, but I was talking generally about
complete Fedora look and artwork, I'm not too much familiar with the
terms you probably use every day, so sorry for the confusion.

The grub graphical menu, splash screens and wallpape are different but
complete look of Fedora hasn't changed that much - here I think about
GTK+ and metacity themes and icons.

> > I use fedora desktop around 10h per day but I look at firefox, gaim
> > and openoffice and not widgets. The parts of the Gnome I look the most
> > are top and bottom panels and of course wallpaper...
>
> Okay, that is different than the artwork we are discussing for sure. If
> you have a GTK+ and metacity theme you would like to propose for
> consideration in F9 that would be great. Artwork though is a very

I can ask the author of the theme I posted you the screenshot because
I'm not the author, but please first tell me what you think of it?

> different process. I am not sure though how you would confuse Martin's
> sketches of water waves with designs for GTK+ and metacity themes, that
> seems a bit of a leap.
>
> > Could I trouble you for an oppinion?
> > Did you have an opportunity to run LinuxMint? If not please look at
> > this screenshot:
> > http://www.linuxmint.com/img/screenshots/celena/1024/mintmenu.png
> >
> > What do you think about the theme on Gnome panels. I believe that
> > fedora hasn't changer it's... maybe ever, no? What is your opinion on
> > that? I must admit that the LinuxMint design team really surprised
> > me... they had some "experiments" with the look of their distro that
> > didn't came out well in some previous version, but I must admit that I
> > really love the panels - it is subtle but still looks very nice.
>
> That looks like it's the applications menu from SuSE. I don't really
> like it from a usability POV - it appears to overwhelm the user with
> choices. It also looks a bit too much like Windows I think. I think the
> menu we have in Fedora is much easier and less overwhelming to use but I
> guess I would have to see or run some comparative usability studies to
> know if the SuSE-style menu has a negative impact on usability. (I am
> guessing so from a comparison of the number items presented. Less items
> tend to be easier to work with.)
>
> ~m

I was asking you to look at the artwork, to be more precise to look at
the gnome panels GTK+ theme - not the Gnome slab application menu.


That isn't subtle, that is a major difference compared to default
gnome applications menu. I like it how MintLinux has implemented it
but I hate, hate, hate how OpenSuse has implemented it, but that is
offtopic.

Valent.


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>


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Old 01-02-2008, 08:02 AM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default A pretty please (regrading Fedora 9 theme)

On 1/1/08, Máirín Duffy <duffy@redhat.com> wrote:
> Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > Could I trouble you for an oppinion?
> > Did you have an opportunity to run LinuxMint? If not please look at
> > this screenshot:
> > http://www.linuxmint.com/img/screenshots/celena/1024/mintmenu.png
> >

Better even look at this screenshot not to confuse it with applications menu:
http://www.linuxmint.com/img/screenshots/celena/1024/mintupload.png

Valent.

--
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:27 AM
Martin Sourada
 
Default A pretty please (regrading Fedora 9 theme)

> What do you think about the theme on Gnome panels. I believe that
> fedora hasn't changer it's... maybe ever, no? What is your opinion on
> that? I must admit that the LinuxMint design team really surprised
> me... they had some "experiments" with the look of their distro that
> didn't came out well in some previous version, but I must admit that I
> really love the panels - it is subtle but still looks very nice.
>
> Thank you,
> Valent.
>

The gnome panels looks same as their menus. We don't change default
panel look since it's a little buggy, when you attempt to manually add
some transparency to it...

In the attached screenshot you can see how it looks when you set GTK
theme that sets panel background and have one panel with customised
look...

Anyway. This is slightly off-topic here. The release specific artwork is
wallpaper, gdm theme, rhgb theme, etc. If you have suggestions about
GTK/Metacity theme, ask in separate thread. It's release agnostic.

Martin
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