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Old 11-21-2007, 01:47 PM
Eric
 
Default FC5 in a commercial product (was Wanna give me a hand debunking this?)

At 06:46 PM 11/20/2007, Les Mikesell wrote:

<LM>>>>>The piece that it misses is that there are (so far...) 3 releases
of fedora for every RHEL. As the RHEL cut time approaches, fedora becomes
increasingly reliable, so RH resources are doing something. However,
after the cut (which will have pretty much the same versions of everything
the concurrent fedora has minus some kernel features), fedora returns to
its wild and crazy ways for its next 2 releases.<<<<


Where did FC5 fit in the sequence? If the 3:1 ratio is more or less
absolute, I'd guess that FC5 was Wild And Crazy #2B and FC6 was Sorta Quiet
And Stable #2.


(We use FC6 for our company's Asterisk PBX server and it has been rock
solid so far.)


We have a new client who is using FC5 in a commercial coin-operated
entertainment machine. Now, obviously a software failure in a machine like
that isn't going to cause any direct injury (might cause indirect injury
when the user gets pissed and throws a chair through the front of the unit)
but neither will it help the company's reputation in any measurable way.


I have already told them that using Fedora (any Fedora) in a commercial
product is probably Not A Good Idea, for reasons elucidated often in this
and other forums. Are there any articles or white papers written by
members of the Fedora team, or others who know far more than I ever will
about this stuff, that I can download and show to our client?


I have suggested that they move to RHEL or CentOS... any others that are
specifically targeted to reasonably-high-reliability commercial systems?


(There are no hard real time requirements in the system.)

But now, let's back off for a minute and think about this.

The kernel is pretty much the same across all distros, isn't it? Isn't
F7's 2.6.21 pretty much the same as RHEL's 2.6.21 or CentOS's 2.6.21 except
for some differences in configuration? And are the kernels still following
the convention of the even-numbered releases (2.4.x, 2.6.x) being the
stable ones and the odd-numbered releases (2.3.x, 2.5.x) being the unstable
"development" releases?


If that is true, and understanding that individual kernel releases may have
problems unique to that release (e.g. 2.6.23 might have broken something
that worked fine in 2.6.22), what else is it about Fedora that makes it
not-quite-ready-for-prime-time? The applications and utilities, and
perhaps some of the drivers and daemons, right? So, if our client's
application isn't using any of the distro's applications, and only a
minimal number of drivers and daemons (that can be individually validated,
or perhaps rolled back to previous stable versions), what is it about
Fedora that's likely to cause trouble?


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Old 11-21-2007, 08:12 PM
John Summerfield
 
Default FC5 in a commercial product (was Wanna give me a hand debunking this?)

Eric wrote:


At 06:46 PM 11/20/2007, Les Mikesell wrote:

<LM>>>>>The piece that it misses is that there are (so far...) 3
releases of fedora for every RHEL. As the RHEL cut time approaches,
fedora becomes increasingly reliable, so RH resources are doing
something. However, after the cut (which will have pretty much the
same versions of everything the concurrent fedora has minus some kernel
features), fedora returns to its wild and crazy ways for its next 2
releases.<<<<


Where did FC5 fit in the sequence? If the 3:1 ratio is more or less
absolute, I'd guess that FC5 was Wild And Crazy #2B and FC6 was Sorta
Quiet And Stable #2.


(We use FC6 for our company's Asterisk PBX server and it has been rock
solid so far.)


We have a new client who is using FC5 in a commercial coin-operated
entertainment machine. Now, obviously a software failure in a machine
like that isn't going to cause any direct injury (might cause indirect
injury when the user gets pissed and throws a chair through the front of
the unit) but neither will it help the company's reputation in any
measurable way.


I have already told them that using Fedora (any Fedora) in a commercial
product is probably Not A Good Idea, for reasons elucidated often in
this and other forums. Are there any articles or white papers written
by members of the Fedora team, or others who know far more than I ever
will about this stuff, that I can download and show to our client?


I have suggested that they move to RHEL or CentOS... any others that are
specifically targeted to reasonably-high-reliability commercial systems?


(There are no hard real time requirements in the system.)

But now, let's back off for a minute and think about this.

The kernel is pretty much the same across all distros, isn't it? Isn't
F7's 2.6.21 pretty much the same as RHEL's 2.6.21 or CentOS's 2.6.21


RHEL and clones do not have 2.6.21. I run a RHEL5 clone on my desktop:
16:48 [summer@numbat ~]$ uname -r
2.6.18-8.1.15.el5
05:56 [summer@numbat ~]$

RHEL and clones have 2.6.9.

Fedora change kernel versions, FC7 never had a kernel that old.


except for some differences in configuration? And are the kernels still
following the convention of the even-numbered releases (2.4.x, 2.6.x)
being the stable ones and the odd-numbered releases (2.3.x, 2.5.x) being
the unstable "development" releases?


No. There is not 2.7, development's done in the mainline kernel these days.

Previously, vendors were expending lots of effort retrofitting
development features to so-called stable kernels.




If that is true, and understanding that individual kernel releases may
have problems unique to that release (e.g. 2.6.23 might have broken
something that worked fine in 2.6.22), what else is it about Fedora that
makes it not-quite-ready-for-prime-time? The applications and


the enterprise kernels are going to be maintained at that level (though
probably with some retrofitting) for years by all vendors in the
enterprise market.



utilities, and perhaps some of the drivers and daemons, right? So, if
our client's application isn't using any of the distro's applications,
and only a minimal number of drivers and daemons (that can be
individually validated, or perhaps rolled back to previous stable
versions), what is it about Fedora that's likely to cause trouble?


I would prefer to base from EL because, at any time, its worst quality
is likely to be at least as good as Fedora/OpenSuSE/etc worst. That's
why folk pay for it.


That aside, if they're not going to update firmware it probably doesn't
make a big difference.


Probably they're better working from Debian which has a smaller
footprint, or Gentoo with (I haven't checked, but probably[1]) has a
smaller footprint still, or even a specialist embedded distro.







[1]Years ago, on RHL 7.3 I tried to install ghostscript without X.
Ghostscript pulled in part of X (probably for some fonts). On Gentoo,
one would set up the build system to not support X, and the Ghostscript
package would build without X and so be smaller.



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John

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Old 11-21-2007, 10:53 PM
Eric
 
Default FC5 in a commercial product (was Wanna give me a hand debunking this?)

At 05:30 PM 11/21/2007, Tim wrote:

<T>>>>>I would think that if they've built a stand-alone unit, that works
as it is, then it won't matter whether the vendor changes things, or
not. If you're not updating your gizmo, and it doesn't interact with other
things that might be risky (e.g. the internet), then carry on using what
already works.<<<<<


Their product is still under development, hasn't gone out even to beta
sites yet, so there's no real way of knowing whether it "already works" or
not, under all conditions.


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