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Old 12-22-2011, 08:21 PM
Joe Zeff
 
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On 12/22/2011 01:04 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:

however, do not check this after dist-upgrades is a epic-fail

how do you debig all the other problems you wrote about if least
your syslog does not work?


Apples and oranges here, because you're working in a production
environment and I'm only dealing with my own boxes. Up until now, I'd
been using package-cleanup and yum, mostly, because my most pressing
concerns were getting rid of problem packages and duplicates so that I
could, at least, update my system. And, since I've been using
preupgrade since I went from F9 to F11 on both my desktop and my laptop
without the slightest glitch up until now, I'd had no reason to check.

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Old 12-22-2011, 08:46 PM
Claude Jones
 
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On 12/22/2011 4:01 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 12/22/2011 11:24 AM, Claude Jones wrote:

On 12/22/2011 1:54 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

I just saw that the url I gave for the BZ was incomplete:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=769918


thanks, just added a comment to confirm your report



Great! I see that you got hit going from F15 to F16. How did you do the
upgrade? We might find a pattern.


I used preupgrade - but, both of my machines were preupgraded from F14
to F15 some months ago - someone said the ksyslog changes occurred
between F14-15...


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Old 12-22-2011, 08:52 PM
Claude Jones
 
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On 12/22/2011 4:16 PM, jdow wrote:

Your arrogance seems to have tripped you up, sir.


his posts drip with disdain, lording his far superior practices, and
heaping scorn on the lesser mortals he's supposedly here to help...(at
least, I thought that was the purpose of this list)


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Old 12-22-2011, 09:19 PM
Reindl Harald
 
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On 22.12.2011 22:16, jdow wrote:
> Careful sir, you just stepped into the brown pile the doggie left.
>
> One could observe that Windows tends to get this right. One could observe
> your attitude matches with "It was hard to write, it should be hard to use!"
> One could observe that this is a sign of acceptance of sloppiness. And there
> are more things one could observe about your comment that reflect poorly on
> you or Linux. Your arrogance seems to have tripped you up, sir.

if you call it arrogance to check what i am doing before, while and
especially AFTER a dist-upgrade so i am arrogant - better this than
doing anything without verify

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Old 12-22-2011, 09:55 PM
Joe Zeff
 
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On 12/22/2011 02:19 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:

if you call it arrogance to check what i am doing before, while and
especially AFTER a dist-upgrade so i am arrogant - better this than
doing anything without verify


No, but it is arrogance to put another member of the list (me, as it
happens) for not taking the same precautions on his home computer that
you find appropriate in a production environment.

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Old 12-22-2011, 10:11 PM
Reindl Harald
 
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On 22.12.2011 23:55, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 12/22/2011 02:19 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> if you call it arrogance to check what i am doing before, while and
>> especially AFTER a dist-upgrade so i am arrogant - better this than
>> doing anything without verify
>
> No, but it is arrogance to put another member of the list (me, as it happens) for not taking the same precautions
> on his home computer that you find appropriate in a production environment.

i found this appropriate 10 years ago as hobby-user which learned electicican
and had no it-education as i not have now except "learning by doing" and
will never understand doing anything without verify it in time

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Old 12-22-2011, 11:29 PM
jdow
 
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On 2011/12/22 14:19, Reindl Harald wrote:


On 22.12.2011 22:16, jdow wrote:

Careful sir, you just stepped into the brown pile the doggie left.

One could observe that Windows tends to get this right. One could observe
your attitude matches with "It was hard to write, it should be hard to use!"
One could observe that this is a sign of acceptance of sloppiness. And there
are more things one could observe about your comment that reflect poorly on
you or Linux. Your arrogance seems to have tripped you up, sir.


if you call it arrogance to check what i am doing before, while and
especially AFTER a dist-upgrade so i am arrogant - better this than
doing anything without verify


Most people have bog standard setups and if Fedora is not being sloppy these
people should find upgrading is usually a do it and everything comes up
working as before. The thought that anything less should be tolerated without
comment, or that those commenting on it are somehow subhuman, is not
acceptable, itself.

Now, recently I took a machine running a very old Fedora - 8 - and moved up
to Scientific Linux 6.0. I prepared for that the way you described. The old
machine IS the backup. And it's running my local DNS/DHCP service, my own
rather customized iptables script, and other services. With that big a step
I figured my config files would be "advisory" only and I'd have a lot of
work to do. Some of the work, though, falls into the "it should just work"
category and was a several month pain until I got selinux beaten into
submission but still running. Joe mentions his audio problems. I have a
rather amusing one. If I am playing some music from the internet and
do something else that produces boops or beeps or even sound of any sort
the audio will go silent on one or the other of the stereo channels until
I reboot. It's our firewall machine and we both telecommute. Reboots are
a PITA. And this problem is right along the lines if "it works so let's
fix it" thinking instead of the more proper "it doesn't work so let's
fix it." It's as if somebody gratuitously redefined "work" and then provided
a substitute that's flakey. THAT cannot be handled with your preparation.
And certainly David D. Desktop should not have to go through either your
gyrations or mine.

(Joe MIGHT have been wise to move to 15 from 14 then move to 16 from 15 as
the upgrade path would have smaller changes. 14 to 15 might have properly
caught his syslogd problem. I'm not looking forward to the day the RHEL path
adopts systemd. It sounds like more problem than solution.)

{^_^}
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Old 12-22-2011, 11:53 PM
Craig White
 
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On Thu, 2011-12-22 at 13:16 -0800, jdow wrote:

> One could observe that Windows tends to get this right. One could observe
> your attitude matches with "It was hard to write, it should be hard to use!"
> One could observe that this is a sign of acceptance of sloppiness. And there
> are more things one could observe about your comment that reflect poorly on
> you or Linux. Your arrogance seems to have tripped you up, sir.
----
Joanne - when you've got two of the most insulting users turning on each
other, best just to get out of the way and let them have at it.

Craig


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Old 12-23-2011, 12:04 AM
jdow
 
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On 2011/12/22 16:53, Craig White wrote:

On Thu, 2011-12-22 at 13:16 -0800, jdow wrote:


One could observe that Windows tends to get this right. One could observe
your attitude matches with "It was hard to write, it should be hard to use!"
One could observe that this is a sign of acceptance of sloppiness. And there
are more things one could observe about your comment that reflect poorly on
you or Linux. Your arrogance seems to have tripped you up, sir.

----
Joanne - when you've got two of the most insulting users turning on each
other, best just to get out of the way and let them have at it.

Craig


What, and spoil an immortal thread? Nonsense!

{O,o}
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:16 AM
Joe Zeff
 
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On 12/22/2011 04:29 PM, jdow wrote:


(Joe MIGHT have been wise to move to 15 from 14 then move to 16 from 15 as
the upgrade path would have smaller changes. 14 to 15 might have properly
caught his syslogd problem. I'm not looking forward to the day the RHEL
path
adopts systemd. It sounds like more problem than solution.)


I'd skipped F10 earlier, because it seemed to have lots of problems, and
found the upgrade from 9 to 11 painless. I was hoping to have the same
luck this time, but no. Neither my desktop nor my laptop has sound any
more, nor can either one recognize a blank CD and write to it. Not only
that, I can only mount flash drives on my desktop as root, and it
insists that only root can write to them, no matter what I do to change
the permissions. And, the only kernel that boots correctly on my laptop
is the F14 kernel, which might have something to do with it. I'm
seriously considering uninstalling all 3.X kernels, rebooting and
updating the kernel to see if that helps. And, I'd still like to know
how having /var/log/messages active would have been much of a help
because AFAICT, most of the info I need doesn't get put there anyway.

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