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Old 12-22-2011, 02:17 PM
Tim
 
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Tim:
>> Begs the question: Has this no-logging become a new default, or just
>> a fault?

Joe Zeff:
> <set mode="pedant">
> No, it doesn't, it asks the question. Begging the question is
> something entirely different which would better be called assuming
> your conclusion.

Tim sets the super pedant mode... Do some more research. What I did
*is* accepted correct modern usage of "begs the question." (Some
situation just screams for the question to be asked, so it is asked.
But *it* didn't "ask" anything, *it* isn't capable of asking questions.)

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[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.



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Old 12-22-2011, 02:17 PM
Tim
 
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Tim:
>> Begs the question: Has this no-logging become a new default, or just a
>> fault?

Rahul Sundaram:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F16_bugs#Upgrade_from_previous_releases_res ets_the_enablement_status_of_services


Well, that seems to suggest that the new default is not to log.

"The rule for migration to systemd is to "start-over fresh" with default
start and stop policy from the new package, and not to migrate what the
user had previously configured."

So, whatever you had set up beforehand is ignored, and the new default
is implemented. Not logging, by default, doesn't seem a good idea.

--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.



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Old 12-22-2011, 02:27 PM
Patrick O'Callaghan
 
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On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 01:47 +1030, Tim wrote:
> Tim:
> >> Begs the question: Has this no-logging become a new default, or just a
> >> fault?
>
> Rahul Sundaram:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F16_bugs#Upgrade_from_previous_releases_res ets_the_enablement_status_of_services
>
>
> Well, that seems to suggest that the new default is not to log.
>
> "The rule for migration to systemd is to "start-over fresh" with default
> start and stop policy from the new package, and not to migrate what the
> user had previously configured."
>
> So, whatever you had set up beforehand is ignored, and the new default
> is implemented. Not logging, by default, doesn't seem a good idea.

If this is true, it does seem like a radical change. What possible
argument could there be for not logging by default?

poc

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Old 12-22-2011, 02:41 PM
Frank Murphy
 
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On 22/12/11 15:27, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:



So, whatever you had set up beforehand is ignored, and the new default
is implemented. Not logging, by default, doesn't seem a good idea.


If this is true, it does seem like a radical change. What possible
argument could there be for not logging by default?

poc



Just did it on an F15 > F16,
rsyslog came up enabled and running.
Admittedly I did "yum update" on the box.

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Old 12-22-2011, 05:20 PM
Joe Zeff
 
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On 12/22/2011 01:03 AM, T.C. Hollingsworth wrote:

The fact that it's not being enabled in practice is definitely a bug,
and someone experiencing this should file it.


Done: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/post_bug.cgi

I'd appreciate anybody else on the list finding this adding comments to
the bug to show that it's not just an isolated issue. And, if I find
that my laptop's also affected, I'll add a comment for that as well.

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Old 12-22-2011, 05:35 PM
Joe Zeff
 
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On 12/22/2011 07:17 AM, Tim wrote:

Tim sets the super pedant mode... Do some more research. What I did
*is* accepted correct modern usage of "begs the question."


It's still wrong, just as "Me and Jim went to the mall." is, even though
most people under about 25 or so would swear it's correct.

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Old 12-22-2011, 05:40 PM
Joe Zeff
 
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On 12/22/2011 07:17 AM, Tim wrote:

"The rule for migration to systemd is to "start-over fresh" with default
start and stop policy from the new package, and not to migrate what the
user had previously configured."


In other words, the new rule is to assume that whoever set the system up
and runs it doesn't know what they're doing and to override all of their
customizations. I'm not surprised, really, it fits right in with the
apparent attitude of the Gnome devs.


Right now, I'll admit, systemd reminds me of my opinion of pulseaudio
when it first came out: a solution looking for a problem that doesn't
exist. The old init system wasn't broken, so why replace it with one
that doesn't completely work as yet?

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Old 12-22-2011, 05:44 PM
Claude Jones
 
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On 12/22/2011 1:20 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 12/22/2011 01:03 AM, T.C. Hollingsworth wrote:

The fact that it's not being enabled in practice is definitely a bug,
and someone experiencing this should file it.


Done: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/post_bug.cgi

I'd appreciate anybody else on the list finding this adding comments to
the bug to show that it's not just an isolated issue. And, if I find
that my laptop's also affected, I'll add a comment for that as well.


I tried, but your link just took me into the login page; I logged in and
then I got an error saying "You must specify a product first" - Tried a
second time, but only got a blank bug reporting page ready to be filled
in - no trace in all of this of your bug report - actually, looking at
your link, I see why - it's not a link to any particular bug report


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Old 12-22-2011, 05:45 PM
Joe Zeff
 
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On 12/22/2011 07:27 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

If this is true, it does seem like a radical change. What possible
argument could there be for not logging by default?


I recently saw that the proper way to shut down Linux from the command
line is poweroff. The old command halt now halts the processor but
doesn't shut down the power. Where's the logic in that? I think that
what we're seeing here is change for the sake of change, not for the
sake of progress being driven by devs who only ask "can I do this," and
not "will this be better."

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Old 12-22-2011, 05:50 PM
Joe Zeff
 
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On 12/22/2011 07:41 AM, Frank Murphy wrote:

Just did it on an F15 > F16,
rsyslog came up enabled and running.
Admittedly I did "yum update" on the box.


It's possible that the upgrade method is significant. I used preupgrade
on both my desktop and laptop. The bug struck the desktop but I've yet
to make time to check the laptop. Anybody adding comments to my BZ
should also mention the upgrade method in case it's significant.

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