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Old 12-15-2007, 06:16 PM
"Daniel B. Thurman"
 
Default Sendmail or Postfix?

I discovered that I have sendmail and postfix on my system,
and while I was unaware that postfix was installed, I had setup
my sendmail configuration and everything seemed to work.

However when I installed ISPConfig, it reconfigured postfix and now
it seems that postfix has taken over sendmail. Odd, but not really.

Prior to installing ISPConfig and using sendmail instead of postfix,
I had previously reported that clamav and spamassassin in the
sendmail.cf file was reporting errors and no one responded so no
solution was in the works thus disabled.

At this point, my postfix is not properly setup to where it should be,
so this means I have two choices, remove postfix and learn how to set
it up properly or remove sendmail since I already know how it works,
but I cannot have both of these running as it will conflict with each other.

So my question is:

Which of the two Email systems are the most secure, that most people
use and trust, has better control over intrusion and has good AntiSpam
and AntiVirus support?

Thanks!

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1184 - Release Date: 12/14/2007 11:29 AM


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Old 12-15-2007, 06:28 PM
Craig White
 
Default Sendmail or Postfix?

On Sat, 2007-12-15 at 11:16 -0800, Daniel B. Thurman wrote:
> I discovered that I have sendmail and postfix on my system,
> and while I was unaware that postfix was installed, I had setup
> my sendmail configuration and everything seemed to work.
>
> However when I installed ISPConfig, it reconfigured postfix and now
> it seems that postfix has taken over sendmail. Odd, but not really.
>
> Prior to installing ISPConfig and using sendmail instead of postfix,
> I had previously reported that clamav and spamassassin in the
> sendmail.cf file was reporting errors and no one responded so no
> solution was in the works thus disabled.
>
> At this point, my postfix is not properly setup to where it should be,
> so this means I have two choices, remove postfix and learn how to set
> it up properly or remove sendmail since I already know how it works,
> but I cannot have both of these running as it will conflict with each other.
>
> So my question is:
>
> Which of the two Email systems are the most secure, that most people
> use and trust, has better control over intrusion and has good AntiSpam
> and AntiVirus support?
----
you should have labeled your post - holy war bait

first...

yum install system-switch-mail

then you can easily switch between them simply by running command...

system-switch-mail

second...

I think sendmail is more widely in use and postfix is generally easier
for users to configure. Both have complete methodologies for resisting
intrusion and other nastiness such as relay control, pipelining, etc.
Both can easily integrate with other technologies such as spamassassin
and clamav but I would generally suggest that you use a 'wrapper'
technology such as MailScanner or amavisd-new.

My personal recommendations are to use postfix, MailScanner (which wraps
spamassassin and clamav and calls them when appropriate)...note that if
you go this route, use the '4.66-beta' version.

Craig

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Old 12-15-2007, 07:13 PM
"Daniel B. Thurman"
 
Default Sendmail or Postfix?

Craig White wrote:
>Subject: Re: Sendmail or Postfix?
>On Sat, 2007-12-15 at 11:16 -0800, Daniel B. Thurman wrote:
>> I discovered that I have sendmail and postfix on my system,
>> and while I was unaware that postfix was installed, I had setup
>> my sendmail configuration and everything seemed to work.
>>
>> However when I installed ISPConfig, it reconfigured postfix and now
>> it seems that postfix has taken over sendmail. Odd, but not really.
>>
>> Prior to installing ISPConfig and using sendmail instead of postfix,
>> I had previously reported that clamav and spamassassin in the
>> sendmail.cf file was reporting errors and no one responded so no
>> solution was in the works thus disabled.
>>
>> At this point, my postfix is not properly setup to where it
>should be,
>> so this means I have two choices, remove postfix and learn how to set
>> it up properly or remove sendmail since I already know how it works,
>> but I cannot have both of these running as it will conflict
>with each other.
>>
>> So my question is:
>>
>> Which of the two Email systems are the most secure, that most people
>> use and trust, has better control over intrusion and has
>good AntiSpam
>> and AntiVirus support?
>----
>you should have labeled your post - holy war bait

Sorry, that was not my intention. I was looking for a secure,
trusted, Anti-"all", pop/imap, virtual user/domain and other
fully-featured system that most IT admins might be using. I am
guessing it is sendmail (as you also said, below) and I have been
using sendmail for a long time, but at this time, I am had problems
getting the clamav-milter and spamassassin-milter to work thus
is disabled at this time.

>
>first...
>
>yum install system-switch-mail
>
>then you can easily switch between them simply by running command...
>
>system-switch-mail

This is really cool! At least this will allow me to try out different
email systems.

>
>second...
>
>I think sendmail is more widely in use and postfix is generally easier
>for users to configure. Both have complete methodologies for resisting

But for me, I thought sendmail was damn hard (still do) and yet I have
more reading to do when it comes to postfix i.e. I have to start at the
beginning. I have found links in HowtoForge.com: "Fedora 8 Server Setup:
LAMP, Email, DNS, FTP, ISPConfig" but the "caveat" might be the use of
ISPConfig which does NOT work with Gnome's GDM - but a temporary solution
is to use /etc/desktop and KDE. Quite frankly, I am on the verge of ripping
out ISPConfig and backing out certain changes as I am beginning to suspect
that it caused other sets of problems, one which setroubleshoot is broke.
As it is, setroubleshootd and sealert runs @ 95% of CPU individually, sealert
hangs and zombies when terminated, and with both running takes 100% CPU and
both do not work anymore. Reinstalling setroubleshoot will not fix it but
it did work BEFORE I installed ISPConfig.

Another link I found on HowtoForge.com: "Virtual Users and Domains With
Postfix, Courier and MySql" and this also looks interesting but hey - I
have done this with sendmail so I do not see the advantage of this other
that this is a different and interesting postfix implementation.

>intrusion and other nastiness such as relay control, pipelining, etc.
>Both can easily integrate with other technologies such as spamassassin
>and clamav but I would generally suggest that you use a 'wrapper'
>technology such as MailScanner or amavisd-new.

Interesting...

>
>My personal recommendations are to use postfix, MailScanner
>(which wraps spamassassin and clamav and calls them when appropriate)...
>note that if you go this route, use the '4.66-beta' version.

BETA!?!? Uh, ok.

Do you know of any setup/howto's for setting up Postfix with
MailScanner/amavisd such as you suggested?

Thanks!

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1184 - Release Date: 12/14/2007 11:29 AM


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Old 12-15-2007, 07:35 PM
Craig White
 
Default Sendmail or Postfix?

On Sat, 2007-12-15 at 12:13 -0800, Daniel B. Thurman wrote:
> Craig White wrote:

> Sorry, that was not my intention. I was looking for a secure,
> trusted, Anti-"all", pop/imap, virtual user/domain and other
> fully-featured system that most IT admins might be using. I am
> guessing it is sendmail (as you also said, below) and I have been
> using sendmail for a long time, but at this time, I am had problems
> getting the clamav-milter and spamassassin-milter to work thus
> is disabled at this time.
----
sendmail miltering is nice and shouldn't be all that hard to
troubleshoot. It's a little confusing getting it set up (making sure
that the sockets are all pointed to the same file)
----
> >
> >I think sendmail is more widely in use and postfix is generally easier
> >for users to configure. Both have complete methodologies for resisting
>
> But for me, I thought sendmail was damn hard (still do) and yet I have
> more reading to do when it comes to postfix i.e. I have to start at the
> beginning. I have found links in HowtoForge.com: "Fedora 8 Server Setup:
> LAMP, Email, DNS, FTP, ISPConfig" but the "caveat" might be the use of
> ISPConfig which does NOT work with Gnome's GDM - but a temporary solution
> is to use /etc/desktop and KDE. Quite frankly, I am on the verge of ripping
> out ISPConfig and backing out certain changes as I am beginning to suspect
> that it caused other sets of problems, one which setroubleshoot is broke.
> As it is, setroubleshootd and sealert runs @ 95% of CPU individually, sealert
> hangs and zombies when terminated, and with both running takes 100% CPU and
> both do not work anymore. Reinstalling setroubleshoot will not fix it but
> it did work BEFORE I installed ISPConfig.
>
> Another link I found on HowtoForge.com: "Virtual Users and Domains With
> Postfix, Courier and MySql" and this also looks interesting but hey - I
> have done this with sendmail so I do not see the advantage of this other
> that this is a different and interesting postfix implementation.
----
I tend to not trust walk-through type stuff because it is always done
from a specific point of view and once you start to wander, things break
and you don't know why.

I don't know anything about ISPConfig but I suspect that the reason is
that it isn't all that popular.

Consider, virtualmin...(though it appears that virtualmin supports
CentOS so you may have to lie and tell it you're running CentOS 5.0)
http://www.virtualmin.com
http://www.webmin.com
----
>
> >intrusion and other nastiness such as relay control, pipelining, etc.
> >Both can easily integrate with other technologies such as spamassassin
> >and clamav but I would generally suggest that you use a 'wrapper'
> >technology such as MailScanner or amavisd-new.
>
> Interesting...
>
> >
> >My personal recommendations are to use postfix, MailScanner
> >(which wraps spamassassin and clamav and calls them when appropriate)...
> >note that if you go this route, use the '4.66-beta' version.
>
> BETA!?!? Uh, ok.
----
it's not really a beta...it's just his cycle for things and the 4.66
which he still classifies as Beta has fixes for the recent
perl-Mail-Tools (or was it perl-Mime-Tools?) which would break what he
classifies as 'stable'
----
>
> Do you know of any setup/howto's for setting up Postfix with
> MailScanner/amavisd such as you suggested?
----
The last time I played with amavisd-new, I hated it so I stay with
MailScanner...there is ample info on setup on their web site, including
integration with Postfix (or Sendmail)

http://www.mailscanner.info/

Craig

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Old 12-15-2007, 10:52 PM
Alan Cox
 
Default Sendmail or Postfix?

> I believe its security problems have been addressed, and the m4 macroes
> in the sendmail-cf package make it easier to configure, but postfix
> remains the MTA of choice for many users and is the default in some
> distros including *suse and *ubuntu*.
>
> Debian prefers exim which (I think) is also in Fedora and EL.

Exim is an excellent mail system. I've used it for many projects and its
really easy to set up and to make do very comlex things.

Sendmail is ok in current Fedora as you can fiddle with the sendmail
config file generator and get useful results, but it still isn't nice,
and anything 'clever' not in the configuration macros is a nightmare.

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Old 12-15-2007, 10:54 PM
John Summerfield
 
Default Sendmail or Postfix?

Daniel B. Thurman wrote:


So my question is:

Which of the two Email systems are the most secure, that most people
use and trust, has better control over intrusion and has good AntiSpam
and AntiVirus support?



Historically, sendmail has had a bad reputation for security, though
widely used. It's also had a bad reputation for its obscure
configuration language; look at sendmail.cf and you will fully
understand that.


postfix was written (by a chap working for IBM, so its pedigree is fine)
to be compatible with sendmail at the commandline level, to address the
security concerns and to be easier to configure.


I used sendmail from the beginning[1], back when it had those security
problems and the obscure configuration language was the only way to
configure it, on OS/2 and thence to Linux when it was what Red Hat
shipped on RHL 3.x and 4.x.


I believe its security problems have been addressed, and the m4 macroes
in the sendmail-cf package make it easier to configure, but postfix
remains the MTA of choice for many users and is the default in some
distros including *suse and *ubuntu*.


Debian prefers exim which (I think) is also in Fedora and EL.

If you need to ask, probably postfix is the best to use. Its main
configuration file is semantically easy for mere mortals to follow and
all configuration files have good comments.


It's what I use whenever I need to choose: internal machines tend to get
the vendor's choice with default setuo.



[1] By the beginning, I refer to my experience of internetting, around
ten years. My first internet-facing server ran RHL 4.2 on a '486. The
only way my ISP of the time hat to prevent sendmail's public relaying of
traffic was, once he spotted something, fiddle with his routing table.



Oh, one of sendmail's helpful features was to qualified unqualified
addresses; I was a client of iinet then, so mail from fred became mail
from fred@iinet.net.au, even when injected from afar.



--

Cheers
John

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Old 12-15-2007, 11:27 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Sendmail or Postfix?

John Summerfield wrote:


Which of the two Email systems are the most secure, that most people
use and trust, has better control over intrusion and has good AntiSpam
and AntiVirus support?



Historically, sendmail has had a bad reputation for security, though
widely used. It's also had a bad reputation for its obscure
configuration language; look at sendmail.cf and you will fully
understand that.


postfix was written (by a chap working for IBM, so its pedigree is fine)
to be compatible with sendmail at the commandline level, to address the
security concerns and to be easier to configure.


I used sendmail from the beginning[1], back when it had those security
problems and the obscure configuration language was the only way to
configure it, on OS/2 and thence to Linux when it was what Red Hat
shipped on RHL 3.x and 4.x.


I believe its security problems have been addressed, and the m4 macroes
in the sendmail-cf package make it easier to configure, but postfix
remains the MTA of choice for many users and is the default in some
distros including *suse and *ubuntu*.


Debian prefers exim which (I think) is also in Fedora and EL.

If you need to ask, probably postfix is the best to use. Its main
configuration file is semantically easy for mere mortals to follow and
all configuration files have good comments.


If you do use sendmail and understand a bit of perl, look at MimeDefang
(http://www.mimedefang.org/) which runs as a milter and can control all
of your virus and spam scanning operations or other customizations
without dealing with the more complex sendmail configuration and can
reject messages during the smtp conversation based on the results of the
tests. It extracts attachments once for all scanning operations and
multiplexes commands to a few back-end servers to conserve memory, so it
is more efficient than most other programs.


--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com

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Old 12-16-2007, 06:41 AM
John Summerfield
 
Default Sendmail or Postfix?

Les Mikesell wrote:



If you do use sendmail and understand a bit of perl, look at MimeDefang
(http://www.mimedefang.org/) which runs as a milter and can control all
of your virus and spam scanning operations or other customizations
without dealing with the more complex sendmail configuration and can
reject messages during the smtp conversation based on the results of the
tests. It extracts attachments once for all scanning operations and
multiplexes commands to a few back-end servers to conserve memory, so it
is more efficient than most other programs.


See http://www.postfix.org/MILTER_README.html for Postfix before-queue
Milter support


--

Cheers
John

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http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375

You cannot reply off-list:-)

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