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Old 08-29-2008, 08:57 AM
Ed Greshko
 
Default Java and openjdk

Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-08-29 at 16:21 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>>
>> You are not a native English speaker, right? The question itself is so
>> outlandish that it is very doubtful that it is truly a question being
>> asked. I'm sure there is a unique label for this type of literary
>> technique...but it escapes me at the moment.
>>
>
> I think that basic reasoning also escapes you, pretty much at all
> moments.
>
>
>
LOL.....

I now know the "literary technique" being used. It is call
"baiting"....kind of what you just did. Good try... Haven't heard a
good joke all day. Thanks....

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Old 08-29-2008, 09:08 AM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Java and openjdk

Lyvim Xaphir wrote:

On Fri, 2008-08-29 at 13:47 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Lyvim Xaphir wrote:


What in the hell are you talking about? The sentence was a question,
not a statement, in text, no less. How obtuse do you have to be in
order to miss that?

You can always phrase a question and still presume things.


However the only person that knows the presumption for sure is the one
phrasing the question.


In many cases, it is quite obvious that the question is not serious
especially when some people use that often as a technique in a debate.
Feel free to jump up and down and claim otherwise.


Rahul

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Old 08-29-2008, 09:20 AM
Alan Cox
 
Default Java and openjdk

> > Depending on implementation specific quirks would certainly be a
> > bug.
>
> Agreed, but working is a yes or no question.

Only if you have an absolute mathematical definition of the outputs for
each input state.

>
> > Have you ever filed a single bug report in
> > http://bugzilla.redhat.com against Fedora?
>
> Not regarding java,

Now the truth comes out.

> That hasn't been true, ever, as far as I know. Almost every large java
> app will have some version-level dependencies - if you want to run them
> you use the appropriate jvm. Maybe someday...

In which case see the LSB discussions on /usr/bin/java

Alan

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Old 08-29-2008, 09:42 AM
Tim
 
Default Java and openjdk

On Fri, 2008-08-29 at 13:47 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> You can always phrase a question and still presume things. For
> example, are you a complete idiot?

Looking at this part of the thread, I think the question is better
stated as: Are you complete idiot, or do you only do it part time?

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Old 08-29-2008, 11:21 AM
Gene Heskett
 
Default Java and openjdk

On Friday 29 August 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
>> On Fri, 2008-08-29 at 13:47 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>> Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
>>>> What in the hell are you talking about? The sentence was a question,
>>>> not a statement, in text, no less. How obtuse do you have to be in
>>>> order to miss that?
>>>
>>> You can always phrase a question and still presume things.
>>
>> However the only person that knows the presumption for sure is the one
>> phrasing the question.
>
>In many cases, it is quite obvious that the question is not serious
>especially when some people use that often as a technique in a debate.
>Feel free to jump up and down and claim otherwise.
>
>Rahul

And the simple fact that those of us who want a working java are going to the
sun site, getting the latest jre and installing it, never again to click on
an ICED TEA update in yumex. Really, I think that says it all. You for
legal reasons are defending an emasculated version, but the final say on what
gets run is us, its our machine. Sue us? I doubt it.

--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Your wise men don't know how it feels
To be thick as a brick.
-- Jethro Tull, "Thick As A Brick"

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Old 08-29-2008, 12:19 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Java and openjdk

Gene Heskett wrote:



And the simple fact that those of us who want a working java are going to the
sun site, getting the latest jre and installing it, never again to click on
an ICED TEA update in yumex. Really, I think that says it all. You for
legal reasons are defending an emasculated version, but the final say on what
gets run is us, its our machine. Sue us? I doubt it.


It is not iced tea now. It is called OpenJDK and that is a certified
Java from Sun. I won't sue for getting the details wrong ;-)


Rahul

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Old 08-29-2008, 12:50 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Java and openjdk

Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Les Mikesell wrote:

Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Oh, sure. Feel free to look up the archives.


Different conversation, I guess.


You claimed a official Java implementation wouldn't have issues. OpenJDK
is one.


I expected more from the conformance test. Apparently what fedora ships
as a java 1.6 has different behavior than Sun's 1.6. And if you follow
the conversation in that link I sent
http://n2.nabble.com/Broken-Startup-on-Fedora-9-td640408.html#a640628,
you'll see that the developer describes openjdk as a moving target where
they even have trouble detecting the version/capabilities.


Errr, that blog says it builds... Is it your/fedora's policy that if
something builds you should ship it?


You presume a lot without me saying anything of that as usual. This
discussion was never about shipping anything.


http://blogs.opennms.org/?p=223


When you don't say what you mean, I have to guess. I thought you were
trying to say that what fedora ships was good enough to use - which is
what my side of the conversation has been about. I'm not convinced.



There is a screenshot showing that it works.


For some very strange definition of 'works'. The article accompanying
it describes parts that don't work.


If you are not even running
a recent release of Fedora, this doesn't affect you anyway. So again a
theoretical discussion which I am not interested in.


I'm also not very interested in a conversation about _why_ it doesn't
work, whether practical or theoretical, and at this point it is clear
that is where running what fedora ships would lead. When I need
something newer than FC6/RHEL5/Centos5 and have some reason to expect it
to work I'll probably try again. In fact, I'd probably have one running
under vmware if I expected even that to work without having to track
non-standard patches. Is that listed on the FAQ these days?


--
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:58 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Java and openjdk

Tim wrote:

On Fri, 2008-08-29 at 13:47 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

You can always phrase a question and still presume things. For
example, are you a complete idiot?


Looking at this part of the thread, I think the question is better
stated as: Are you complete idiot, or do you only do it part time?


I did presume that when posting a link to a screenshot as proof that
something works he might have read the associated article describing the
parts that still don't work - or what some other developers had to say
about it...


--
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Old 08-29-2008, 01:18 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Java and openjdk

Les Mikesell wrote:

I expected more from the conformance test.


... which was my major point even earlier. Conformance tests won't get
you what you wanted. Major apps are relying on non-standard
implementation quirks and even bugs and break even between revisions
from the same vendor.


For some very strange definition of 'works'. The article accompanying
it describes parts that don't work.


I will go by what has been posted on the blog.

"Okay, I started mucking around with OpenJDK on Fedora 9 today, and it
turns out it is pretty easy to build OpenNMS against OpenJDK and get it
to work"


So more than merely building as your claimed earlier.

In fact, I'd probably have one running
under vmware if I expected even that to work without having to track
non-standard patches. Is that listed on the FAQ these days?


Feel free to use rpmfusion.org wiki for writing down all the content you
wanted. Any good search engine can be your friend as well.


Rahul

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Old 08-29-2008, 02:38 PM
Gene Heskett
 
Default Java and openjdk

On Friday 29 August 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>Gene Heskett wrote:
>> And the simple fact that those of us who want a working java are going to
>> the sun site, getting the latest jre and installing it, never again to
>> click on an ICED TEA update in yumex. Really, I think that says it all.
>> You for legal reasons are defending an emasculated version, but the final
>> say on what gets run is us, its our machine. Sue us? I doubt it.
>
>It is not iced tea now. It is called OpenJDK and that is a certified
>Java from Sun. I won't sue for getting the details wrong ;-)
>
>Rahul

Oh? From my yumex screen (F8 install)
java-1.7.0-icedtea
jave-1.7.0-icedtea-plugin

and from an rpm -qa|grep java
java-1.7.0-icedtea-1.7.0.0-0.19.b21.snapshot.fc8
java-1.5.0-gcj-1.5.0.0-17.fc8
tzdata-java-2008d-1.fc8
glib-java-0.2.6-10.fc8
java_cup-0.10-0.k.6jpp.1
java-1.7.0-icedtea-plugin-1.7.0.0-0.19.b21.snapshot.fc8

Humm, I may be wrong about not having icedtea
[root@coyote ~]# which java
/usr/bin/java
[root@coyote ~]# ls -l `which java`
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 2008-03-31
19:34 /usr/bin/java -> /etc/alternatives/java
[root@coyote ~]# ls -l /etc/alternatives/java/
ls: cannot access /etc/alternatives/java/: Not a directory
[root@coyote ~]# ls -l /etc/alternatives/java
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 39 2008-03-31
19:41 /etc/alternatives/java -> /usr/lib/jvm/jre-1.7.0-icedtea/bin/java

However, from FF's aboutlugins, I get this:
Java(TM) Plug-in 1.6.0_06-b02

File name: /usr/java/jre1.6.0_06/plugin/i386/ns7/libjavaplugin_oji.so
Java(TM) Plug-in 1.6.0_06

So, do I need to replace that link? By installing the yumex offerings and
bearing in mind that I long since gave up trying to keep up with every new
browser version having its own plugins dir, created one & put all the plugins
there, and linked all the other browsername/plugins to it?

In that case, is it safe to do so since updates are not yet flowing? Those
are old packages that have been sitting there for a month or more.

A side note, we (my local group of friends) have found a blog
<http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=1803&tag=nl.e539> that gives a few hints
on finding out if we too have been infected. According to it, no systems
here are. The point being that the extreme privacy this has been kept under
has now been exposed, letting the horse out of the barn so to speak, and this
list deserves more candor from its 'parent' regarding it. We had been led to
believe this was only a debian problem because of the speedup shortcut in the
random number section of the code supposedly only they used. If this is a
different exploit, then we need to know. We aren't above pulling in the
src's and building our own you know, however my reading that code is not
going to tell me if its safe, so I've told the one in my local group who was
going to do that to hold off another day or so... His exposure to an exploit
is 100x that of mine, so lets see some activity of some kind other than take
a potato and wait. We are beginning to need a second potato to stave off the
hunger here.

--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
What will you do if all your problems aren't solved by the time you die?

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