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Old 08-26-2008, 04:31 AM
"Amadeus W.M."
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 23:51:30 -0400, Chris Tyler wrote:

> This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most
> Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community.
> However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a
> high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't
> subscribed.
>
> As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's
> been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current
> description of this list simply reads:
>
> fedora-users: For users of Fedora
>
> The proposed replacement is:
>
> fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.
>
> Feedback on this proposed change is welcome.
>
> In addition, this list has been without an owner. Paul Frields and I
> have assumed ownership of the list, and we'd welcome one or two
> experienced members of the community to join us.
>
> --
> Chris Tyler


I welcome the change, but what exactly is the difference? And how does
this affect us?

Will we find how to fix the bad flesh and the impulseaudio?


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Old 08-26-2008, 04:53 AM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

Chris Tyler wrote:

This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most
Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community.
However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a
high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't
subscribed.

As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's
been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current
description of this list simply reads:

fedora-users: For users of Fedora

The proposed replacement is:

fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.

Feedback on this proposed change is welcome.


Historically we have avoided using the word "support" because for many
people, it implied commercial support and to differentiate Fedora from
RHEL. Not sure that is a problem anymore. Maybe the following is better:


"Community help and assistance for using the Fedora distribution of Linux"

Rahul

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Old 08-26-2008, 04:55 AM
dexter
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Tue August 26 2008 04:51:30 Chris Tyler wrote:
> This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most
> Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community.
> However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a
> high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't
> subscribed.
>
> As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's
> been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current
> description of this list simply reads:
>
> fedora-users: For users of Fedora
>
> The proposed replacement is:
>
> fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.
>
> Feedback on this proposed change is welcome.
>
> In addition, this list has been without an owner. Paul Frields and I
> have assumed ownership of the list, and we'd welcome one or two
> experienced members of the community to join us.
>
It's good to see board members prepared to mix it with the great unwashed
(err: users) but some questions:
Is their an irc log of this public meeting?? I missed it.
In this New low volume list, what & who is off topic.
How will this 'Help and support' take shape.
More details/disscusion needed.

...dex

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Old 08-26-2008, 05:01 AM
"Arthur Pemberton"
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Chris Tyler <chris@tylers.info> wrote:
>
> This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most
> Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community.
> However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a
> high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't
> subscribed.
>
> As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's
> been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current
> description of this list simply reads:
>
> fedora-users: For users of Fedora
>
> The proposed replacement is:
>
> fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.
>
> Feedback on this proposed change is welcome.
>
> In addition, this list has been without an owner. Paul Frields and I
> have assumed ownership of the list, and we'd welcome one or two
> experienced members of the community to join us.


I would support this. And would even go as far as merging it (somehow)
with fedoraforums.org with the explicit purpose of "help and volunteer
support".

However, we have to commit to policing the list for noise removal.


--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )

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Old 08-26-2008, 05:13 AM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 23:51 -0400, Chris Tyler wrote:
> This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most
> Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community.
> However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a
> high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't
> subscribed.
>
> As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's
> been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current
> description of this list simply reads:
>
> fedora-users: For users of Fedora
>
> The proposed replacement is:
>
> fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.
>
> Feedback on this proposed change is welcome.
I against this change for several reasons.

If you'd really want to separate "end-user support" from "general
discussions on topics related to Fedora", then I'd recommend to add an
additional "fedora-support-list" and to see how this works out.

Also, do you expect such a change to improve the situation wrt. Linux
veterans not participating on this list?
I don't, because to "Linux veterans" the "non-technical issues" related
to Linux often are more important/interesting than the "mere technical
issues" (Remember: Using Linux also is a political statement)

Ralf (Linux veteran)


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Old 08-26-2008, 06:35 AM
Tim
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 23:51 -0400, Chris Tyler wrote:
> The proposed replacement is:
>
> fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.

As Rahul said, that sounds official. I second his view that the
description should make it clear that you're getting peer support.

I don't quite think we need to go as far as what one of the Ubuntu
forums did, in saying that you needed to be very careful of following
the advice you receive, as it may be malicious. I haven't seen that
sort of thing on this list (e.g. malcontents advising rm -rfd /*), but
then we don't know what any private replies might say.

--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.25.14-108.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.



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Old 08-26-2008, 07:43 AM
Timothy Murphy
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

Chris Tyler wrote:

> This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most
> Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community.
> However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a
> high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't
> subscribed.
>
> As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's
> been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current
> description of this list simply reads:
>
> fedora-users: For users of Fedora
>
> The proposed replacement is:
>
> fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.
>
> Feedback on this proposed change is welcome.

(1) I doubt if a change in the description of the list
will make any difference.
I for one long ago forgot the precise description, if I ever knew it.

(2) I think the list works pretty well at present.
The majority of postings seem to me to deal with problems
that Fedora users have encountered.

(3) The only way of reducing postings to the list -
which seems to be the purpose of the exercise -
would be to moderate it in some way.

In my experience, moderating a newsgroup or mailing list
involves a huge amount of time,
which in your (or Paul Field's) case I would have thought
would be better spent on something else.

(4) Basically, the proposal seems to be
that the list should be censored in some way.
I am not against that in principle,
but I would like to know what would be disallowed.
Eg would references to livna be removed?

(5) The claim is that more experts would contribute to the list
if it were shorter.
I doubt if that is true; the reason experts do not contribute
is that they are doing other things, eg contributing to bugzillas.

In my experience, there are enough knowledgeable people on the list
to give comprehensive answers to most queries.



--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

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Old 08-26-2008, 11:44 AM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 10:23 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Chris Tyler wrote:
> > This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most
> > Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community.
> > However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a
> > high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't
> > subscribed.
> >
> > As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's
> > been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current
> > description of this list simply reads:
> >
> > fedora-users: For users of Fedora
> >
> > The proposed replacement is:
> >
> > fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.
> >
> > Feedback on this proposed change is welcome.
>
> Historically we have avoided using the word "support" because for many
> people, it implied commercial support and to differentiate Fedora from
> RHEL. Not sure that is a problem anymore. Maybe the following is better:
>
> "Community help and assistance for using the Fedora distribution of Linux"

"Help" and "assistance" are synonyms, so using both would be redundant.
The word "support" would be more in line with "succor" (um, no) or
"encouragement" (hey, that might work!).

--
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gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:45 AM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 05:55 +0100, dexter wrote:
> On Tue August 26 2008 04:51:30 Chris Tyler wrote:
> > This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most
> > Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community.
> > However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a
> > high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't
> > subscribed.
> >
> > As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's
> > been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current
> > description of this list simply reads:
> >
> > fedora-users: For users of Fedora
> >
> > The proposed replacement is:
> >
> > fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.
> >
> > Feedback on this proposed change is welcome.
> >
> > In addition, this list has been without an owner. Paul Frields and I
> > have assumed ownership of the list, and we'd welcome one or two
> > experienced members of the community to join us.
> >
> It's good to see board members prepared to mix it with the great unwashed
> (err: users) but some questions:
> Is their an irc log of this public meeting?? I missed it.
> In this New low volume list, what & who is off topic.
> How will this 'Help and support' take shape.
> More details/disscusion needed.

No one implied this would be a low-volume list. Exactly the opposite;
the high volume on fedora-list can continue unabated, but there's a
better idea of what's on topic -- problems using Fedora, and how to fix
them.

--
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gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:47 AM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 16:05 +0930, Tim wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 23:51 -0400, Chris Tyler wrote:
> > The proposed replacement is:
> >
> > fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.
>
> As Rahul said, that sounds official. I second his view that the
> description should make it clear that you're getting peer support.
>
> I don't quite think we need to go as far as what one of the Ubuntu
> forums did, in saying that you needed to be very careful of following
> the advice you receive, as it may be malicious. I haven't seen that
> sort of thing on this list (e.g. malcontents advising rm -rfd /*), but
> then we don't know what any private replies might say.

Good point Tim, maybe we should put a "caveat emptor" in the bit that
the list management software applies to the end of every message? Only
not so scary.

--
Paul W. Frields
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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