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Old 08-26-2008, 08:51 PM
Mike McCarty
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

Jeff Spaleta wrote:

On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Mike McCarty
<Mike.McCarty@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I am no newbie to Linux, and I consider it simply a technical
alternative to other OS choices.


Then I have to work harder to make sure you understand that this
project is more than than the technical bits.


The project may be, but my use of its results is not part of the
project.

Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){pri ntf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!

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Old 08-26-2008, 09:36 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Mike McCarty
<Mike.McCarty@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> The project may be, but my use of its results is not part of the
> project.

Only if you don't want to talk about your use. But if you value the
open process ideal (even if we haven't perfected it) then talking
about your own use of the bits makes for the best sort of advocacy for
more open processes in other contexts. Helping more people know that
the bits are useful to you helps sustains and grow the process.
Helping to sustain and grow the process helps to produce more useful
bits.

-jef

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Old 08-27-2008, 06:29 AM
Anders Karlsson
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

* Ralf Corsepius <rc040203@freenet.de> [20080826 21:36]:
> On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 14:39 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> > On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 07:13 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > > (Remember: Using Linux also is a political statement)
> >
> > Maybe. Maybe not.
> Well, to newcomer, it's likely not an obvious political statement, to
> Linux veterans supporting Linux rsp. one of it's flavors (here: Fedora)
> is a fully conscious active political statement/decision.

Chosing to use Linux may be a political statement. It may also be a "I
picked the best tool for the job, and this time, it happened to be
Linux".

> This might be news to newcomers who regard Fedora and Linux as "a
> technical alternative to Vista", ... but whether you like it or not,
> Linux comes with political and philosophical strings attached, whether
> you agree to them or not.

That is true.

What's not true is the percieved need to ram political and
philosophical views down the neck of some poor newcomer that requires
technical assistance. (I've made this point before.)

IMHO - the community would be much better served by letting the first
list a new user subscribes to focus on help rather than
indoctrination. After all, we do want more users, right?

/Anders

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Old 08-27-2008, 08:04 AM
Tim
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

Paul W. Frields:
>> maybe we should put a "caveat emptor" in the bit that the list management
>> software applies to the end of every message? Only not so scary.

James Wilkinson:
> If you’re going to edit that, can we please *finally* have a link to a
> FAQ list? Possibly
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines , or
> that material re-ordered for fedora-list purposes?

Yes, there should be something like that. People who sign up to the
list should be presented with a link to the guidelines. It's a bit hard
to expect people not to top-post if they've not been told that before
they see/send any messages.

On a similar note, the "unsubscribe" link on each message is rather
offputting. People might avoid it, thinking that they'll unsubscribe
themselves just by clicking on it. And conversely, people wanting to
unsubscribe might be a bit bamboozled as to what to do next. There's
got to be a simple way to say that it's for you subscription control,
not just unsubscription.

--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.25.14-108.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.



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Old 08-27-2008, 09:42 AM
g
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Tim wrote:
<snip>
> On a similar note, the "unsubscribe" link on each message is rather

pressing <ctrl+u> in most browsers will display 'headers' and lend a bit more
light on what to do.

problem is, not many know how to access 'headers'. much less that there is
such a thing.


- --
tc,hago.

g
.

in a free world without fences, who needs gates.

learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz
'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/
'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Old 08-27-2008, 11:12 AM
Frank Murphy
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 23:51 -0400, Chris Tyler wrote:
> This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most
> Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community.
> However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a
> high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't
> subscribed.
>
> As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's
> been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current
> description of this list simply reads:
>
> fedora-users: For users of Fedora
>
> The proposed replacement is:
>
> fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.

--addendum peer to peer support.

on the "welcome email" please include join fedora-announce...,
or more fittingly I think, put important info:
http://fedoraproject.org/

bold and bright.

>
> Feedback on this proposed change is welcome.
>

Also keep updating the faq's on site.
in-light of recent events,
maybe a piece of rkhunter ripwire
from fedora pov.

Frank

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Old 08-27-2008, 01:13 PM
max
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

Anders Karlsson wrote:

* Ralf Corsepius <rc040203@freenet.de> [20080826 21:36]:

On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 14:39 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:

On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 07:13 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

(Remember: Using Linux also is a political statement)

Maybe. Maybe not.

Well, to newcomer, it's likely not an obvious political statement, to
Linux veterans supporting Linux rsp. one of it's flavors (here: Fedora)
is a fully conscious active political statement/decision.


Chosing to use Linux may be a political statement. It may also be a "I
picked the best tool for the job, and this time, it happened to be
Linux".


This might be news to newcomers who regard Fedora and Linux as "a
technical alternative to Vista", ... but whether you like it or not,
Linux comes with political and philosophical strings attached, whether
you agree to them or not.


That is true.

What's not true is the percieved need to ram political and
philosophical views down the neck of some poor newcomer that requires
technical assistance. (I've made this point before.)

You can't control who offers help or what terms they demand for it. I
haven't seen anyone ram philosophicals down anyones throat. I have seen
two or more eager parties go at it for weeks but I don't mind that, I
will participate or I won't.



IMHO - the community would be much better served by letting the first
list a new user subscribes to focus on help rather than
indoctrination. After all, we do want more users, right?

If you want more users and less noise then you have to raise the bar. I
like the fedora list but it seems that too often people are offered a
solution with little or no explanation. Now you might say, who has the
time? or they just want it to work. These attitudes promote ignorance. I
personally want an explanation, I don't like blindly implementing other
peoples ideas and in fact I don't. I don't ask for help too often here
anymore, not because I don't need it but because I'll have to hunt down
the explanation on my own, I figure while I am at it I might as well
hunt down the solution too. Maybe its just people assuming the other OP
has a certain level of knowledge but if they had that level of knowledge
then I am guessing they wouldn't need help. Fact is I'd rather an
explanation was offered than a solution. Solutions are often quite
apparent when the situation is properly understood. I am in the minority
on this I am sure. Should I go back and count how many flash threads I
have stored in my archive? All started because someone didn't have sound
on flash, how about all the bitching and moaning about KDE? Someone even
attributed a quote bashing KDE to me, when in fact I like it, on the
blog they pass off as news. How many other recurring questions can I
find? lets see....codecs is another...shall I go on? You want a
technical list? We need to start producing threads that really explain
things so that people can get pointed to these messages to solve their
problem, instead of rehashing the same shit over and over. I am not
blaming the people that ask the questions, I am blaming the people that
provide the answers. Instead of getting technical now the censorship is
starting....no I don't expect anyone will listen but i feel obligated to
say it and no I am not interested in debating the matter I signed up for
a technical discussion but its pretty thin around here.


-Max
--
Fortune favors the *BOLD*

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Old 08-27-2008, 01:30 PM
"Patrick O'Callaghan"
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 09:42 +0000, g wrote:
> pressing <ctrl+u> in most browsers will display 'headers' and lend a
> bit more light on what to do.

You mean mail clients.

poc

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Old 08-27-2008, 01:36 PM
"Patrick O'Callaghan"
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 17:34 +0930, Tim wrote:
> Paul W. Frields:
> >> maybe we should put a "caveat emptor" in the bit that the list management
> >> software applies to the end of every message? Only not so scary.
>
> James Wilkinson:
> > If you’re going to edit that, can we please *finally* have a link to a
> > FAQ list? Possibly
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines , or
> > that material re-ordered for fedora-list purposes?
>
> Yes, there should be something like that. People who sign up to the
> list should be presented with a link to the guidelines. It's a bit hard
> to expect people not to top-post if they've not been told that before
> they see/send any messages.

+1 to this. In fact +10 :-)

> On a similar note, the "unsubscribe" link on each message is rather
> offputting. People might avoid it, thinking that they'll unsubscribe
> themselves just by clicking on it. And conversely, people wanting to
> unsubscribe might be a bit bamboozled as to what to do next. There's
> got to be a simple way to say that it's for you subscription control,
> not just unsubscription.

Yes, instead of "To unsubscribe:" it could say "List options:" or some
such. I would propose something like:

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Please read the Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Options: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list


poc

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Old 08-27-2008, 01:40 PM
"Patrick O'Callaghan"
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 09:13 -0400, max wrote:
> You want a technical list? We need to start producing threads that
> really explain things so that people can get pointed to these messages
> to solve their problem, instead of rehashing the same shit over and
> over.

I totally agree that this is needed, but I'm very sceptical about a
mailing-list being the appropriate medium. The list can provide a
gateway to the answers but any reasonably complete answer database has
to be on a FAQ page somewhere.

poc

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