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Old 08-26-2008, 12:04 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 09:43 +0200, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> Chris Tyler wrote:
>
> > This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most
> > Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community.
> > However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a
> > high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't
> > subscribed.
> >
> > As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's
> > been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current
> > description of this list simply reads:
> >
> > fedora-users: For users of Fedora
> >
> > The proposed replacement is:
> >
> > fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.
> >
> > Feedback on this proposed change is welcome.
>
> (1) I doubt if a change in the description of the list
> will make any difference.
> I for one long ago forgot the precise description, if I ever knew it.
>
> (2) I think the list works pretty well at present.
> The majority of postings seem to me to deal with problems
> that Fedora users have encountered.

I think that's right. Having a better topic statement simply makes it
easier for people to know when a discussion's off-topic, so they can
have it elsewhere. Right now the statement is so general that it's
difficult to know that.

> (3) The only way of reducing postings to the list -
> which seems to be the purpose of the exercise -
> would be to moderate it in some way.
>
> In my experience, moderating a newsgroup or mailing list
> involves a huge amount of time,
> which in your (or Paul Field's) case I would have thought
> would be better spent on something else.

(note: Frields) :-)

It's nice of you to be looking out for my time, and in all honesty I
don't think I would have time to do true full-time moderation on a list
with this much traffic. But I do check in on the list traffic from time
to time just to see that folks are generally helping each other, in the
spirit of the Fedora community. We want to gather a number of folks for
this purpose because no one of us can do it all the time.

> (4) Basically, the proposal seems to be
> that the list should be censored in some way.
> I am not against that in principle,
> but I would like to know what would be disallowed.
> Eg would references to livna be removed?

Not our purpose *at all*. We just want to work with the existing
fedora-list community to ensure that users who are seeking help, advice
-- hey Chris, there's another word you might want to use! -- and tips
aren't overrun by threads on the composition of Gethsemane cheese.
(Note to cheese lovers: Nothing against that type of cheese, I have
personally enjoyed it many times.) Having a topical list is less
confusing to users.

I think in general this list does quite a good job of keeping on topic,
but since other parts of our community have been on the receiving end of
complaints, it would be unfair to ignore them. Changing the topic makes
it clearer to people what's on-topic for this list, and it's easier to
point to when someone goes off the topic.

I don't foresee changing the way people give advice. That's what the
community's all about -- helping each other. If you want to suggest
that someone uses a solution from livna or some other third party
repository as a way of helping that person, that's your prerogative as a
helpful fellow community member.

> (5) The claim is that more experts would contribute to the list
> if it were shorter.
> I doubt if that is true; the reason experts do not contribute
> is that they are doing other things, eg contributing to bugzillas.
>
> In my experience, there are enough knowledgeable people on the list
> to give comprehensive answers to most queries.

I'm not sure it's necessarily that the list is too high-volume in
general, but that it's *perceived* to be high-volume because of a lot of
off-topic chatter. I don't think that's a correct perception, but if we
can help the perception by making sure the topic is clearer, that's a
way of attracting more helpers on fedora-list.

You're absolutely right that it might not help attract more experts, but
it certainly couldn't hurt to clearly let users know what to expect on
this list, could it? I don't take your statement to mean you don't want
other helpers on this list, so if more people feel this is a good place
to grow mutual support for using Fedora, I think you'd agree that's a
worthy goal.

--
Paul W. Frields
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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Old 08-26-2008, 12:26 PM
"Frank Chiulli"
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Chris Tyler <chris@tylers.info> wrote:
>
> This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most
> Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community.
> However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a
> high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't
> subscribed.
>
> As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's
> been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current
> description of this list simply reads:
>
> fedora-users: For users of Fedora

Do you really mean 'fedora-list' and not 'fedora-users' or are you
proposing a new list 'fedora-users'? Just want to be sure.


>
> The proposed replacement is:
>
> fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.

Same comment.


>
> Feedback on this proposed change is welcome.
>
> In addition, this list has been without an owner. Paul Frields and I
> have assumed ownership of the list, and we'd welcome one or two
> experienced members of the community to join us.
>
> --
> Chris Tyler
>
> --
> fedora-list mailing list
> fedora-list@redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>

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Old 08-26-2008, 01:58 PM
Chris Tyler
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 23:52 -0400, fedora-list-request@redhat.com wrote:
>
> This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most
> Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community.
> However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a
> high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't
> subscribed.
>
> As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting,
> it's
> been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current
> description of this list simply reads:
>
> fedora-users: For users of Fedora
>
> The proposed replacement is:
>
> fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.
>
> Feedback on this proposed change is welcome.
>
> In addition, this list has been without an owner. Paul Frields and I
> have assumed ownership of the list, and we'd welcome one or two
> experienced members of the community to join us.

Some clarification based on the discussion that's taken place (while I
slept :-) ...

- Yes, I meant "fedora-list" and not "fedora-users" (sorry!)

- The intention is not to moderate or censor the list, but to make it
more useful by clarifying the list description and encouraging
participation in the list by more of the long-term community members.

- Likewise, the intention is not to reduce the list traffic by
moderation, but hopefully a clearer purpose and better participation
will increase its value to the community. (Obviously, moderation is an
option if things really get out of hand, but I don't think anyone really
wants to go there, and moderating a high-volume list in a timely fashion
is a huge task).

- That the list needs some love is clearly shown by the 149 messages in
the admin queue, dating back to early 2007 (mostly messages over the 60K
length limit and messages with subjects like "help" and "unsubscribe").

There's been some great feedback and suggestions on the list
description. How about this?--

fedora-list: Community assistance, encouragement, and advice for
using the Fedora distribution.

--
Chris

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Old 08-26-2008, 04:04 PM
Armin
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Tuesday 26 August 2008 00:51:30 Chris Tyler wrote:
> This list, fedora-list@redhat.com, is one of the first lists that most
> Fedora users join, and therefore quite important to the community.
> However, it's a high-volume list (and is sometimes perceived to have a
> high noise level), so many veterans of the Fedora community aren't
> subscribed.
>
> As the result of discussion at the last public (IRC) board meeting, it's
> been proposed that narrow the scope of this list a bit. The current
> description of this list simply reads:
>
> fedora-users: For users of Fedora
>
> The proposed replacement is:
>
> fedora-users: Help and support for using the Fedora distribution.
>
> Feedback on this proposed change is welcome.
>
> In addition, this list has been without an owner. Paul Frields and I
> have assumed ownership of the list, and we'd welcome one or two
> experienced members of the community to join us.
>
> --
> Chris Tyler
the "using the Fedora distribution" could be switched with "using
Fedora". Sounds more at home

--
Armin

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Old 08-26-2008, 04:57 PM
Timothy Murphy
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

Paul W. Frields wrote:

> You're absolutely right that it might not help attract more experts, but
> it certainly couldn't hurt to clearly let users know what to expect on
> this list, could it? I don't take your statement to mean you don't want
> other helpers on this list, so if more people feel this is a good place
> to grow mutual support for using Fedora, I think you'd agree that's a
> worthy goal.

Anything that would bring in more experts would be excellent.

I must say, I have asked many queries on the list on many aspects of Fedora,
and had satisfying answers to almost all of them -
most of the useful answers, I should say,
coming from a very small phalanx of experts.

Of the many lists and newsgroups I subscribe to,
I would put the fedora list and comp.text.tex equal first,
with sci.math unchallenged holder of the bottom place.




--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

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Old 08-26-2008, 06:39 PM
Matthew Saltzman
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 07:13 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> (Remember: Using Linux also is a political statement)

Maybe. Maybe not.

--
Matthew Saltzman

Clemson University Math Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu
http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs

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Old 08-26-2008, 07:35 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 14:39 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 07:13 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > (Remember: Using Linux also is a political statement)
>
> Maybe. Maybe not.
Well, to newcomer, it's likely not an obvious political statement, to
Linux veterans supporting Linux rsp. one of it's flavors (here: Fedora)
is a fully conscious active political statement/decision.

This might be news to newcomers who regard Fedora and Linux as "a
technical alternative to Vista", ... but whether you like it or not,
Linux comes with political and philosophical strings attached, whether
you agree to them or not.

Ralf

--
Registered Linux User #26 http://counter.li.org


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Old 08-26-2008, 07:42 PM
Mike McCarty
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

Ralf Corsepius wrote:

On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 14:39 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:

On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 07:13 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

(Remember: Using Linux also is a political statement)

Maybe. Maybe not.

Well, to newcomer, it's likely not an obvious political statement, to
Linux veterans supporting Linux rsp. one of it's flavors (here: Fedora)
is a fully conscious active political statement/decision.

This might be news to newcomers who regard Fedora and Linux as "a
technical alternative to Vista", ... but whether you like it or not,
Linux comes with political and philosophical strings attached, whether
you agree to them or not.


Linux is an OS + apps (ls, cp, mv, etc.). Fedora is a (collection) of
distribution(s). SUPPORTERS of Linux/Fedora/whatever come with
political strings attached. OS (and support apps) are used to manage
hardware and load useful apps. This forum comes with supporters, and
their political strings.

I am no newbie to Linux, and I consider it simply a technical
alternative to other OS choices.

However, on your side of the coin, in order to get good support for
Fedora, one has to deal with supporters, mostly through this forum,
which does get one entangled in politics.

Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){pri ntf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!

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Old 08-26-2008, 07:51 PM
James Wilkinson
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

Paul W. Frields wrote:
> Good point Tim, maybe we should put a "caveat emptor" in the bit that
> the list management software applies to the end of every message? Only
> not so scary.

If you’re going to edit that, can we please *finally* have a link to a
FAQ list? Possibly
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines , or
that material re-ordered for fedora-list purposes?

Thanks,

James.

--
E-mail: james@ | Please do not put sandwiches in the disk drive.
aprilcottage.co.uk |

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Old 08-26-2008, 08:12 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default The Scope and Ownership of fedora-list

On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Mike McCarty
<Mike.McCarty@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I am no newbie to Linux, and I consider it simply a technical
> alternative to other OS choices.

Then I have to work harder to make sure you understand that this
project is more than than the technical bits.

-jef

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