Considering F8 is a standard DVD install if the Help is not there
THAT is a bug.
Sometimes help files are missing because they were simply not written
but in this case I think it must be due to a packaging error because
help files to "Users and Groups" can be found on earlier releases. For
example on FC5 pressing help yields browser display of:
Maybe you can find this or similar file on F8, if not they may not
have been packaged with F8. If you really want this corrected write a
bug report (low severity).
I have been waiting for 45 updates to arrive via my slow DSL
Internet system, and have been looking with real interest at the Gnome
Help effort. I found that you can look at the whole thing. And see what
is there. I then looked at the Gedit help.
Then I pressed the Gedit Help button and the Gedit part of the Gnome
Help was displayed. So this is how it works. It is all there in Gnome Help.
So I looked and see no help for Users and Groups so it is needed I
think. Of course it may be in-work right now.
Karl
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12-08-2007, 04:14 PM
"Gerry Tool"
Users and Groups
>
> On my F7 system, Help has to start Firefox as root. Eww. Anyway, you
> might try opening a terminal, `su -` to become root (or use sudo if set
> up), and then `firefox` or the generic `htmlview` and see what happens
> after a while, and if any messages print (none printed for me, but there
> might be errors for you).
> --
I tried this in F8 to no avail. I have filed a bug #416601 against
system-config-users in F8.
Gerry
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12-08-2007, 04:44 PM
"Mikkel L. Ellertson"
Users and Groups
Gerry Tool wrote:
>
> I tried this in F8 to no avail. I have filed a bug #416601 against
> system-config-users in F8.
>
> Gerry
>
I added the error message to the bug report. It looks like an update
to the python code to improve help file display broke things.
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/usr/share/system-config-users/mainWindow.py", line 622, in
on_help_button_clicked
html_display (page)
NameError: global name 'html_display' is not defined
Thank you for reporting this bug. I would never have run into it
because I do not normally bring up the help screen.
Mikkel
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12-08-2007, 05:17 PM
Les Mikesell
Users and Groups
Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
I'm arguing that whether you have access to those devices should depend
on who you are, not where you are, just like every other unix operation
checks pre-established settings for user and group values against
pre-established settings on every file and device when opening them. It
shouldn't be determined by whether you are able to touch a certain
keyboard.
It adds one more level of control. Instead of a user being able to
access a device from anywhere, you can limit access to when they are
actually at the machine.
But the 'console' isn't something special in a multiuser system.
Personally, I do almost all Linux work through NX/freenx, remote X, or
ssh connections. I may be near enough to want to use speakers or CD
devices but not using the attached keyboard - if there is one.
Just like you can do for running some
programs. If you only run servers, then it is probably not useful to
you.
There is not a clear line between a server and a desktop. For me, the
'desktop' may only be running X or NX.
> For desktop users, it can be very useful. It can also be a
security measure.
If you throw away the concepts of remote access and multiuser operation.
For example, You may want to set it up so the user
that is syncing their PDA is the only one that can access it.
Because they have to be at the local console to use the sync cradle,
you limit the access to the local user.
Like I said, I may be 'near' a machine but not using its keyboard.
There are a lot of resources that were not available in the original
UNIX systems, or were not usable by a normal user, that users
commonly use today. Because of this, Linux handles some resources in
ways that user/group permission are nto the best choice. Arguments
that boil down to "it has always been done that way" are not going
to cut it.
It's not _just_ that it has always been done that way - it was done that
way for good reasons and it doesn't make much sense to dumb down an
elegant system designed for multiuser and network access and pretend it
can only be accessed for certain things if you happen to be typing at a
certain keyboard. As an _option_ that you could active if you happen to
have that sort of situation and don't care about network/remote access
it would make sense, but it is throwing away a lot to pretend that it is
only designed to be used from one special device and make the other
things break by default.
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12-08-2007, 05:56 PM
Frank Cox
Users and Groups
On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:17:31 -0600
Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
> But the 'console' isn't something special in a multiuser system.
Perhaps it isn't, on your system.
However, on almost everyone else's system, it is. The fact that you don't like
it or that it somehow offends you notwithstanding.
> Personally, I do almost all Linux work through NX/freenx, remote X, or
> ssh connections. I may be near enough to want to use speakers or CD
> devices but not using the attached keyboard - if there is one.
You can easily set it up to do that, if you wish. It's a highly configurable
setting.
> If you throw away the concepts of remote access and multiuser operation.
Why? In this case, you really CAN have your cake and eat it too. You lose
nothing, and if you truly believe otherwise, you can easily disable it.
>
> > For example, You may want to set it up so the user
> > that is syncing their PDA is the only one that can access it.
> > Because they have to be at the local console to use the sync cradle,
> > you limit the access to the local user.
>
> Like I said, I may be 'near' a machine but not using its keyboard.
Then set you machine up to allow that. I run into this situation regularly, as
I have a few LTSP terminal setups. It's not usually too difficult to make
things work.
> It's not _just_ that it has always been done that way - it was done that
> way for good reasons and it doesn't make much sense to dumb down an
> elegant system designed for multiuser and network access and pretend it
> can only be accessed for certain things if you happen to be typing at a
> certain keyboard. As an _option_ that you could active if you happen to
> have that sort of situation and don't care about network/remote access
> it would make sense, but it is throwing away a lot to pretend that it is
> only designed to be used from one special device and make the other
> things break by default.
IT IS AN OPTION. You are free to disable or modify it as you see fit.
Therefore, as you just stated here, it really does make sense.
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12-08-2007, 06:09 PM
"Mikkel L. Ellertson"
Users and Groups
Les Mikesell wrote:
> Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
>
>> It adds one more level of control. Instead of a user being able to
>> access a device from anywhere, you can limit access to when they are
>> actually at the machine.
>
> But the 'console' isn't something special in a multiuser system.
> Personally, I do almost all Linux work through NX/freenx, remote X, or
> ssh connections. I may be near enough to want to use speakers or CD
> devices but not using the attached keyboard - if there is one.
>
So? there is nothing stopping you from doing this. But if there is a
user logged into the console, then they are given the use of the
device. It works well for most users, but if it does not work for
you, change it for your system. That is what Linux is all about -
you can configure things the way you like them.
>
>> For desktop users, it can be very useful. It can also be a
>> security measure.
>
> If you throw away the concepts of remote access and multiuser operation.
>
How are you throwing them away? They are still there. But there is
another concept added that works well for a lot of users. If you are
working at the local machine, instead of doing remote access, you
get the use of a configurable set of resources while you are logged
in. If you have a machine that does not have a local console, it
does not affect you.
>
> It's not _just_ that it has always been done that way - it was done that
> way for good reasons and it doesn't make much sense to dumb down an
> elegant system designed for multiuser and network access and pretend it
> can only be accessed for certain things if you happen to be typing at a
> certain keyboard. As an _option_ that you could active if you happen to
> have that sort of situation and don't care about network/remote access
> it would make sense, but it is throwing away a lot to pretend that it is
> only designed to be used from one special device and make the other
> things break by default.
>
I guess you have not looked at how it works, but decided you don't
like it from what little was posted on the list. It is an option
that has been around for a long time. It has been working well. What
is giving people trouble is that it is not managing as many devices
as it did in the past. For example, all serial ports were once
controlled by console.perms. Now you have to specify the ports you
want to control, or fall back on adding users to the uucp group,
because the defaults are more restrictive.
Now, you may want to disable console.perms package, because it is
not of any benefit to you. But that does not mean it is of no
benefit to the average user. You just have to put forth the effort
to customize your system for the way you want it to work, instead of
expecting Fedora to change to match the way you want to do things.
But I expect that you will continue arguing that Fedora should do
things your way, as you always do. So I am done with this thread.
Mikkel
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12-08-2007, 06:42 PM
David Boles
Users and Groups
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> Gerry Tool wrote:
>>> What is even more interesting is that there is help available. I
>>> suspect that for some reason Karl does not have the help files
>>> installed. I bet Help does not work in most (all) of the system
>>> tools on his system.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mikkel
>> Well, to my surprise, I clicked on the Help > Contents menu in Users
>> and Groups and found no response. So, I went to the Add/Remove
>> software app and searched for help. The long list of applications did
>> not include any packages that I could recognize as system help files.
>>
>> Either I'm blind, or there is some package I can't find. I would
>> really like to have Help work. What do I need to install to get it to
>> work? This install was from the DVD, and I did a detailed selection
>> of additional packages from the Anaconda customize now option.
>>
>> Gerry
>>
> The help files themselves can be accessed through: (FC6)
>
> file:///usr/share/doc/system-config-users-1.2.47/index.html
>
> Now, on my F6 system, clicking on the Help button, or on Help -->
> Contents brings up the help files in Firefox. Depending on how you
> have things configured, you my have a different program set as your
> default. I will double check what F8 does when I fire up my laptop
> later.
This is a file association. Whatever application you have setup to open
HTML files will start and Ta Da open the HTML file. ;-)
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12-08-2007, 06:42 PM
David Boles
Users and Groups
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Timothy Murphy wrote:
> David Boles wrote:
>
> https://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-9-Manual/custom-guide/ch-redhat-config-users.html
>
> I think the RedHat-9 manuals were exceptionally good.
> But I doubt if that is the right place to look
> for advice on GUI programs like this.
> I imagine there will have been many changes over the years.
I agree. But I was trying to point that that this had probably already
been done. And while I am sure that 'tweaks' have been made to what is
available today it is probably very, very similar to what was available
then. And, with very little examination, the current GUI operation(s)
is/are very easy to figure out. I remember from before these GUIs. When
this had to be done by hand by editing configuration files. No GUI
handholding in those days.
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12-08-2007, 07:30 PM
"Mikkel L. Ellertson"
Users and Groups
David Boles wrote:
> Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
>
>> Now, on my F6 system, clicking on the Help button, or on Help -->
>> Contents brings up the help files in Firefox. Depending on how you
>> have things configured, you my have a different program set as your
>> default. I will double check what F8 does when I fire up my laptop
>> later.
>
> This is a file association. Whatever application you have setup to open
> HTML files will start and Ta Da open the HTML file. ;-)
>
With the changes made in F8 to system-config-users, it does not open
the help file from within the program. It looks like they changed
things so that it does not check the file association, but instead
tries to find one of two hard-coded programs. But it does not work.
The other question is who's file association would it use? Because
the program is being run as root, would it use root's file associations?
Mikkel
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12-08-2007, 11:29 PM
David Boles
Users and Groups
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> David Boles wrote:
> With the changes made in F8 to system-config-users, it does not open
> the help file from within the program. It looks like they changed
> things so that it does not check the file association, but instead
> tries to find one of two hard-coded programs. But it does not work.
> The other question is who's file association would it use? Because
> the program is being run as root, would it use root's file associations?
Hmmm... That is a good question. It would either have to be a system
default or a user preference. And HTML, I would think, should default to
the default browser of the logged in user. Or the systems default
browser. A GNOME user would not not have KDE installed/active so setting
Konquer(sp?) as default HTML display would not make sense. Firefox is
the 'default' installed browser for Fedora GNOME so that, in of itself,
makes good sense.
Does not yelp do all, or most, of the 'help' calls? I have never really
tried, or cared, because most 'help files' are a waste of time.
Developers and such write really good code but they, sorry developer
people, tend to stink at docs, helps, and howtos', ;-)
As for the 'help files' for this really simple GUI? One that 'Joe
Average user' will/should probably *never* use or even see? And probably
would *not* read the help if it was there. And that Joe 'I know what the
heck I am doing' Administrator should know without a simple helpme file?
The GUI that I looked at had, for example, an 'Add user' button. And an
Edit user' button. And a 'Delete user' button. You need instructions for
this? Think about this. If you need simple 'help me!!' instructions for
this *you should not be here doing this!*.
I am not with, nor do I speak for, Fedora. But there was a lot of
discussion about cutting down the *sizes* of the various CDs and DVDs
because of what sounded like, to me, space problems from volunteer mirrors.
<rant mode on>
IMO - and I do understand what is happening here - the *dumbing down* of
Linux so that it will attract *dumb Windows users* (not my words, or
thoughts, just the general thinking of some elitist Linux users) has
created a whole generation of Windows users turned Linus users that are
*dumb*. Not *dumb* but just don't have any idea what the heck is going
on or why.
If you follow this list you will see it every day. "I don't know what
this is, or why it is like this, but I changed it and now my <fill in
the blank here> which used to work does not work." And when someone, who
knows what is/might be wrong, can help me fix it, and tries to help me I
will argue with them?
<rant mode off>
Users and Groups
