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Old 08-23-2008, 12:58 AM
Joel Rees
 
Default multibooting ppc with Mac OS 9 & X on an ancient iBook

I recently tried installing Fedora 9 on an iBook that I need to boot
both Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X on. I also have some other partitioning
constraints, so I ended up with 6 partitions before I started the
Fedora 9 install.


Fedora 9 happily created lots more partitions, but then Mac OS 9 (and
X, IIRC) refused to boot. Couldn't recognize the format of the disk.
(Might have helped if I had got a 120 G HD instead of a 160 G HD?)


Also, on a separate iteration, when I tried to force the yaboot
partition to 1MB, that also apparently made the partition map
unacceptable to Mac OS 9.


I had to wipe the disks with the Mac OS 9 formatter and start again.
(Lost a day or so of my time, but no data.) Since I thought I had
time, I tried an install of just Fedora, but the current partitioning
software wouldn't create the partition for yaboot any smaller than
16MB, IIRC, and then it wouldn't install yaboot in anything bigger
than 1MB.


I am currently successfully multi-booting Mac OS 9 & X (Jaguar) and
openBSD, but openBSD is not using yaboot. I give the four-finger
salute on startup and type "boot hd:,ofwboot /bsd" at the open
firmware prompt. That doesn't really bother me, even though I have to
remember that the keyboard map is US and doesn't match the Japanese
keyboard. :-/


openBSD seems to take a little more nursing than I currently have
time for, and I am primarily interested in getting the Gimp and
openoffice.org running. Well, probably some of the edutainment stuff,
as well.


In about two weeks, one of the partitions will be freed, so I should
have three partitions to give Fedora 9, and I am thinking of trying
again. But I won't have the day or so necessary to re-build the Mac
OS 9/X sides of things if the Fedora partitioning software makes the
map unreadable to Mac OS 9 again. So, I am wondering a couple of things:


One, Is anyone is currently successfully multi-booting Mac OS 9, Mac
OS X, and Fedora 9 on any system, especially one with a boot HD
larger than 120G?


Two, would it be possible to boot with openBSD's approach, invoking
an openfirmware script on the Mac OS 9 boot disk? (I haven't been
able, yet, to untangle the web of what happened when yaboot became
usable.)


Joel Rees

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Old 08-23-2008, 03:07 AM
Craig White
 
Default multibooting ppc with Mac OS 9 & X on an ancient iBook

On Sat, 2008-08-23 at 09:58 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
> I recently tried installing Fedora 9 on an iBook that I need to boot
> both Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X on. I also have some other partitioning
> constraints, so I ended up with 6 partitions before I started the
> Fedora 9 install.
>
> Fedora 9 happily created lots more partitions, but then Mac OS 9 (and
> X, IIRC) refused to boot. Couldn't recognize the format of the disk.
> (Might have helped if I had got a 120 G HD instead of a 160 G HD?)
>
> Also, on a separate iteration, when I tried to force the yaboot
> partition to 1MB, that also apparently made the partition map
> unacceptable to Mac OS 9.
>
> I had to wipe the disks with the Mac OS 9 formatter and start again.
> (Lost a day or so of my time, but no data.) Since I thought I had
> time, I tried an install of just Fedora, but the current partitioning
> software wouldn't create the partition for yaboot any smaller than
> 16MB, IIRC, and then it wouldn't install yaboot in anything bigger
> than 1MB.
>
> I am currently successfully multi-booting Mac OS 9 & X (Jaguar) and
> openBSD, but openBSD is not using yaboot. I give the four-finger
> salute on startup and type "boot hd:,ofwboot /bsd" at the open
> firmware prompt. That doesn't really bother me, even though I have to
> remember that the keyboard map is US and doesn't match the Japanese
> keyboard. :-/
>
> openBSD seems to take a little more nursing than I currently have
> time for, and I am primarily interested in getting the Gimp and
> openoffice.org running. Well, probably some of the edutainment stuff,
> as well.
>
> In about two weeks, one of the partitions will be freed, so I should
> have three partitions to give Fedora 9, and I am thinking of trying
> again. But I won't have the day or so necessary to re-build the Mac
> OS 9/X sides of things if the Fedora partitioning software makes the
> map unreadable to Mac OS 9 again. So, I am wondering a couple of things:
>
> One, Is anyone is currently successfully multi-booting Mac OS 9, Mac
> OS X, and Fedora 9 on any system, especially one with a boot HD
> larger than 120G?
>
> Two, would it be possible to boot with openBSD's approach, invoking
> an openfirmware script on the Mac OS 9 boot disk? (I haven't been
> able, yet, to untangle the web of what happened when yaboot became
> usable.)
----
I haven't done multi-boot Mac's but I have done a bunch of different Mac
setups. I'm not really a fan of multi-boot on any hardware choice.

Anyway...I'm not sure why you would want or if you can have separate
boot partitions for Mac OS 9 and OS-X and wonder why you would want to
do that because if you create an HFS partition for both OS-9 (Classic)
and OS-X you would normally keep them on the same setup and use the
control panel 'Startup Disk' to choose which would boot.

Use the Disk Utilities option on Mac OS-X install to create the
partition for OS-X/Classic and leave appropriate 'unpartitioned' space
for BSD and/or Linux. I would expect that if you install Fedora last, it
will handle the installation of yaboot/yaboot.conf for you and give you
all of the startup options.

Craig

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Old 08-25-2008, 06:24 AM
Joel Rees
 
Default multibooting ppc with Mac OS 9 & X on an ancient iBook

(Giving a little more detail

On Aug 23, 2008, at 12:07 PM, Craig White wrote:


On Sat, 2008-08-23 at 09:58 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:

I recently tried installing Fedora 9 on an iBook that I need to boot
both Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X on. I also have some other partitioning
constraints, so I ended up with 6 partitions before I started the
Fedora 9 install.


Specifically,
a Mac OS 9 partition (I know this is not necessary, but it does make
the whole lludge more robust.),
two booting Mac OS X partititions (Not case sensitive or journaling
formatted, 10.2 is too early for that.),
a UFS partition to serve to the web (Required by the configuration of
one of the Mac OS X systems.),
a UFS swap partition (Not strictly required, but, again, it makes the
system more robust in my case, if not in the general case.),

a partition intended for sharing with Linux

Actually, I pre-partitioned the yaboot partition and the Linux big
partition with the Mac OS X utility, as well. And the Mac OS 9 utility.


Well, my memory is a bit confused, since I tried this several times,
several different ways. I don't remember for sure, but I don't think
the 1M partions I created with either the Mac OS 9 utility or the Mac
OS X utility were accepted by the installer as boot partitions for
yaboot. Don't remember all the ways I tried to get the installer to
use them, but I couldn't.



Fedora 9 happily created lots more partitions,


... when I told it to.


but then Mac OS 9 (and
X, IIRC) refused to boot. Couldn't recognize the format of the disk.
(Might have helped if I had got a 120 G HD instead of a 160 G HD?)


I think this was due to having more partitions than Mac OS 9 could
deal with. I think, in one case, Mac OS X did boot, in



Also, on a separate iteration, when I tried to force the yaboot
partition to 1MB, that also apparently made the partition map
unacceptable to Mac OS 9.

I had to wipe the disks with the Mac OS 9 formatter and start again.
(Lost a day or so of my time, but no data.) Since I thought I had
time, I tried an install of just Fedora, but the current partitioning
software wouldn't create the partition for yaboot any smaller than
16MB, IIRC, and then it wouldn't install yaboot in anything bigger
than 1MB.

I am currently successfully multi-booting Mac OS 9 & X (Jaguar) and
openBSD, but openBSD is not using yaboot. I give the four-finger
salute on startup and type "boot hd:,ofwboot /bsd" at the open
firmware prompt. That doesn't really bother me, even though I have to
remember that the keyboard map is US and doesn't match the Japanese
keyboard. :-/

openBSD seems to take a little more nursing than I currently have
time for, and I am primarily interested in getting the Gimp and
openoffice.org running. Well, probably some of the edutainment stuff,
as well.

In about two weeks, one of the partitions will be freed, so I should
have three partitions to give Fedora 9, and I am thinking of trying
again. But I won't have the day or so necessary to re-build the Mac
OS 9/X sides of things if the Fedora partitioning software makes the
map unreadable to Mac OS 9 again. So, I am wondering a couple of
things:


One, Is anyone is currently successfully multi-booting Mac OS 9, Mac
OS X, and Fedora 9 on any system, especially one with a boot HD
larger than 120G?

Two, would it be possible to boot with openBSD's approach, invoking
an openfirmware script on the Mac OS 9 boot disk? (I haven't been
able, yet, to untangle the web of what happened when yaboot became
usable.)

----
I haven't done multi-boot Mac's but I have done a bunch of
different Mac

setups. I'm not really a fan of multi-boot on any hardware choice.


Different requirements. I need to take time out to learn how to
program for ODF and PDF, so I can build programs that will do some
things I presently use AppleWorks documents to accomplish. Until
then, I need to be able to do a lot of work in the Mac OS.



Anyway...I'm not sure why you would want or if you can have separate
boot partitions for Mac OS 9 and OS-X and wonder why you would want to
do that because if you create an HFS partition for both OS-9 (Classic)
and OS-X you would normally keep them on the same setup and use the
control panel 'Startup Disk' to choose which would boot.


It's slightly more robust to put Mac OS 9 on a separate partition. My
kids like to play a game called Bugdom that only exists in a Mac OS 9
version, and I've seen that game do funny things to Mac OS 9, so I'm
a little superstitious about it. I may not absolutely need to, but
cutting the partitions again will require me to install from scratch
again, and I won't have time for that for a while.



Use the Disk Utilities option on Mac OS-X install to create the
partition for OS-X/Classic and leave appropriate 'unpartitioned' space
for BSD and/or Linux.


Yeah, being able to boot both Linux and openbsd would be nice. Might
be worth a tradeoff or two.



I would expect that if you install Fedora last, it
will handle the installation of yaboot/yaboot.conf for you and give
you

all of the startup options.


That's why I experimented with only installing Fedora, but I got
stuck at the problem with making a partition small enough for yaboot.


Anyway, if there is an openfirmware incantation that I can use
instead of installing yaboot, I could try that the next time I have
time to work on this.


Hate to be noisy, but I sure appreciate any pointers I can get.

Joel Rees

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Old 08-26-2008, 03:12 AM
Craig White
 
Default multibooting ppc with Mac OS 9 & X on an ancient iBook

On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 15:24 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
> (Giving a little more detail
>
> On Aug 23, 2008, at 12:07 PM, Craig White wrote:

> Actually, I pre-partitioned the yaboot partition and the Linux big
> partition with the Mac OS X utility, as well. And the Mac OS 9 utility.
----
I had hoped that someone with experience with multi-boot on Macintosh
would have piped in because I lack this experience myself but I got the
impression that the Fedora installer created the yaboot partition itself
but I may have just let it.

looking at a Mac with Fedora 8 installed, the anaconda-ks.cfg reports...
#clearpart --all --initlabel --drives=hda
#part appleboot --fstype "Apple Bootstrap" --size=1 --ondisk=hda
#part /boot --fstype ext3 --size=100 --ondisk=hda
#part / --fstype ext3 --size=1 --grow --ondisk=hda
#part swap --size=256 --grow --maxsize=512 --ondisk=hda

So evidently, I must have allowed the druid to create the partitions but
note that anaconda on a ppc permits an fstype of 'Apple Bootstrap' so
yeah, if you are gonna install multi-boot, you gotta have 1 mb partition
designated for it.

this may be useful (apparently you can't use fdisk on an Apple system)
# parted -l
Model: Maxtor 6Y080L0 (ide)
Disk /dev/hda: 82.0GB
Sector size (logical/physical): 512B/512B
Partition Table: mac

Number Start End Size File system Name Flags
1 512B 32.8kB 32.3kB Apple
2 32.8kB 1081kB 1049kB hfs untitled boot
3 1081kB 106MB 105MB ext3 untitled
4 106MB 641MB 535MB linux-swap swap swap
5 641MB 82.0GB 81.3GB ext3 untitled

obviously the yaboot partition is #2
----
> > ----
> > I haven't done multi-boot Mac's but I have done a bunch of
> > different Mac
> > setups. I'm not really a fan of multi-boot on any hardware choice.
>
> Different requirements. I need to take time out to learn how to
> program for ODF and PDF, so I can build programs that will do some
> things I presently use AppleWorks documents to accomplish. Until
> then, I need to be able to do a lot of work in the Mac OS.
----
Appleworks is a black hole...it's virtually impossible to get documents
out of Appleworks unless you are willing to open each one individually,
save it as the Microsoft equivalent which is a time hog.

OOo has a terrific set of tools for document creation...I think it puts
Appleworks to shame.
----
> Anyway, if there is an openfirmware incantation that I can use
> instead of installing yaboot, I could try that the next time I have
> time to work on this.
----
I don't think so (on ppc...this is all you get) - OFI is for the Intel
based Macs
----
> Hate to be noisy, but I sure appreciate any pointers I can get.
----
you probably got the best I had to offer - I actually made a clean
install of OS 9.1 that I then made into a dmg file with 'Disk Utility'
so I could just dump a full OS 9 setup onto any computer running OSX so
it would work in Classic Mode or reboot to OS 9 if I chose it in
'Startup Disk' (it's just under 300 mb).

Craig

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Old 08-28-2008, 02:00 AM
Joel Rees
 
Default multibooting ppc with Mac OS 9 & X on an ancient iBook

On Aug 26, 2008, at 12:12 PM, Craig White wrote:


On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 15:24 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:

(Giving a little more detail

On Aug 23, 2008, at 12:07 PM, Craig White wrote:



Actually, I pre-partitioned the yaboot partition and the Linux big
partition with the Mac OS X utility, as well. And the Mac OS 9
utility.

----
I had hoped that someone with experience with multi-boot on Macintosh
would have piped in because I lack this experience myself but I got
the
impression that the Fedora installer created the yaboot partition
itself

but I may have just let it.


When you let it do the automatic setup it does.

But Anaconda still isn't able to use it on my iBook.

looking at a Mac with Fedora 8 installed, the anaconda-ks.cfg
reports...

#clearpart --all --initlabel --drives=hda
#part appleboot --fstype "Apple Bootstrap" --size=1 --ondisk=hda
#part /boot --fstype ext3 --size=100 --ondisk=hda
#part / --fstype ext3 --size=1 --grow --ondisk=hda
#part swap --size=256 --grow --maxsize=512 --ondisk=hda

So evidently, I must have allowed the druid to create the
partitions but

note that anaconda on a ppc permits an fstype of 'Apple Bootstrap' so
yeah, if you are gonna install multi-boot, you gotta have 1 mb
partition

designated for it.

this may be useful (apparently you can't use fdisk on an Apple system)
# parted -l
Model: Maxtor 6Y080L0 (ide)
Disk /dev/hda: 82.0GB
Sector size (logical/physical): 512B/512B
Partition Table: mac

Number Start End Size File system Name Flags
1 512B 32.8kB 32.3kB Apple
2 32.8kB 1081kB 1049kB hfs untitled boot
3 1081kB 106MB 105MB ext3 untitled
4 106MB 641MB 535MB linux-swap swap swap
5 641MB 82.0GB 81.3GB ext3 untitled

obviously the yaboot partition is #2


That's a 100G drive?


----

----
I haven't done multi-boot Mac's but I have done a bunch of
different Mac
setups. I'm not really a fan of multi-boot on any hardware choice.


Different requirements. I need to take time out to learn how to
program for ODF and PDF, so I can build programs that will do some
things I presently use AppleWorks documents to accomplish. Until
then, I need to be able to do a lot of work in the Mac OS.

----
Appleworks is a black hole...it's virtually impossible to get
documents
out of Appleworks unless you are willing to open each one
individually,

save it as the Microsoft equivalent which is a time hog.


Well, actually, Apple's iWok^Hrk suite, now that I look things up, is
supposed to import a lot of the old AppleWorks stuff okay now. Just
not the vector stuff.


As for being a black hole, yeah, the data format is archaic.

OOo has a terrific set of tools for document creation...I think it
puts

Appleworks to shame.


Different strokes for different folks. OOo feels clumsy to me. Feels
too much like MSOffice.


That may be in part because I've been burned by MSOffice so many
times that even the slightest whiff of MS turns my stomach.


But what I'm using that is indispensable to me right now is a little
feature where you can bury a spreadsheet in a "draw" document, show
small windows on the printable page, and use the sort function with
random keys to randomize the words in the printed list. Kind of a
slick way to make word bingo cards, among other things. And I'm doing
a lot of less program-like stuff with the drawing software, too.


That SVG editor (inkscape?) that was in the news recently may help a
lot for when I need to do drawings.


Thinking about this, I suppose I should be able to build something
similar with hidden worksheets in the MSOffice-centric way of
thinking. Maybe I'll try that with OOo sometime. (I do use it on
other, more powerful hardware. And I have to admit, I should not be
surprised if the AppleWorks version might turn out to be less
intuitive to my fellow teachers who might want to use the teaching
materials I'm creating than an MSExcel "workbook" or whatever that
would be called. Also, I've thought, several times, that I might be
able to get even better effects by programing a plugin for OOo, just
haven't had the time and luck to figure out how to get a handle on
that yet.)



----

Anyway, if there is an openfirmware incantation that I can use
instead of installing yaboot, I could try that the next time I have
time to work on this.

----
I don't think so (on ppc...this is all you get) - OFI is for the Intel
based Macs


I think you mean EFI, which is iNTEL's take on openfirmware?


----

Hate to be noisy, but I sure appreciate any pointers I can get.

----
you probably got the best I had to offer - I actually made a clean
install of OS 9.1 that I then made into a dmg file with 'Disk Utility'
so I could just dump a full OS 9 setup onto any computer running
OSX so

it would work in Classic Mode or reboot to OS 9 if I chose it in
'Startup Disk' (it's just under 300 mb).


That might also work, but the games aren't the only things. An old
Metrowerks compiler/IDE, for example, easily consumes 1G, and I'm not
anxious to put that on an image file on this 300MHz iBook. Don't know
how much longer I'll need it, but I still need it for a little while.


Actually, there are a number of ways I can free up partitions, once I
get some old cruft cleared away in the dd-ed copy of the previous
boot partition, but that's really not on-topic here.


I filed a bug report on the part of this where gparted won't make a
small enough partition on my disk and anaconda won't use the
partitions I can make -- bugzilla #460390


Thanks for trading ideas.

Hopefully, I can either get the time to get openBSD set up with X11
and the Gimp and OOo or I can find out enough to get it to boot
ofboot and yaboot from my Mac OS 9 partition in the next few months.


Really want to see how heavy OOo is in Linux on this box. The
NeoOffice fork of OOo was too heavy on Mac OS X 10.2 with 192M of
RAM. If I want to try that again, or if I want to try the new OOo for
X11 on the Mac, I'll have to upgrade the iBook to 10.3, and I'm not
anxious to spend the money and time on that. I'd rather just get a
new notebook that can handle it OOo better under Linux. Some of these
webbooks look really nice, and especially handy for when I want to do
some work on the train.


More rambling than useful information here, hopefully not too much
noise.


Joel Rees

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Old 08-28-2008, 02:20 AM
Craig White
 
Default multibooting ppc with Mac OS 9 & X on an ancient iBook

On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 11:00 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Aug 26, 2008, at 12:12 PM, Craig White wrote:
>
> > this may be useful (apparently you can't use fdisk on an Apple system)
> > # parted -l
> > Model: Maxtor 6Y080L0 (ide)
> > Disk /dev/hda: 82.0GB
> > Sector size (logical/physical): 512B/512B
> > Partition Table: mac
> >
> > Number Start End Size File system Name Flags
> > 1 512B 32.8kB 32.3kB Apple
> > 2 32.8kB 1081kB 1049kB hfs untitled boot
> > 3 1081kB 106MB 105MB ext3 untitled
> > 4 106MB 641MB 535MB linux-swap swap swap
> > 5 641MB 82.0GB 81.3GB ext3 untitled
> >
> > obviously the yaboot partition is #2
>
> That's a 100G drive?
----
parted says that it's an 82G drive
----
> > OOo has a terrific set of tools for document creation...I think it
> > puts
> > Appleworks to shame.
>
> Different strokes for different folks. OOo feels clumsy to me. Feels
> too much like MSOffice.
----
totally intentional - It allows people to leverage what they already
know rather than scuffling through a completely different interface.
----
> That may be in part because I've been burned by MSOffice so many
> times that even the slightest whiff of MS turns my stomach.
>
> But what I'm using that is indispensable to me right now is a little
> feature where you can bury a spreadsheet in a "draw" document, show
> small windows on the printable page, and use the sort function with
> random keys to randomize the words in the printed list. Kind of a
> slick way to make word bingo cards, among other things. And I'm doing
> a lot of less program-like stuff with the drawing software, too.
>
> That SVG editor (inkscape?) that was in the news recently may help a
> lot for when I need to do drawings.
>
> Thinking about this, I suppose I should be able to build something
> similar with hidden worksheets in the MSOffice-centric way of
> thinking. Maybe I'll try that with OOo sometime. (I do use it on
> other, more powerful hardware. And I have to admit, I should not be
> surprised if the AppleWorks version might turn out to be less
> intuitive to my fellow teachers who might want to use the teaching
> materials I'm creating than an MSExcel "workbook" or whatever that
> would be called. Also, I've thought, several times, that I might be
> able to get even better effects by programing a plugin for OOo, just
> haven't had the time and luck to figure out how to get a handle on
> that yet.)
----
you really should be using scribus - desktop publishing because you can
put all sorts of different elements (text/graphics) anywhere on the
page.
----
> I think you mean EFI, which is iNTEL's take on openfirmware?
----
indeed
----
> > you probably got the best I had to offer - I actually made a clean
> > install of OS 9.1 that I then made into a dmg file with 'Disk Utility'
> > so I could just dump a full OS 9 setup onto any computer running
> > OSX so
> > it would work in Classic Mode or reboot to OS 9 if I chose it in
> > 'Startup Disk' (it's just under 300 mb).
>
> That might also work, but the games aren't the only things. An old
> Metrowerks compiler/IDE, for example, easily consumes 1G, and I'm not
> anxious to put that on an image file on this 300MHz iBook. Don't know
> how much longer I'll need it, but I still need it for a little while.
----
the dmg file is a time saver meaning that I didn't have to struggle
through creating an OS 9 setup once I had the image, I could mount the
image and just copy over the 'System Folder', 'Applications (Mac OS 9)'
folders and I was pretty much set.
----
>
> Actually, there are a number of ways I can free up partitions, once I
> get some old cruft cleared away in the dd-ed copy of the previous
> boot partition, but that's really not on-topic here.
>
> I filed a bug report on the part of this where gparted won't make a
> small enough partition on my disk and anaconda won't use the
> partitions I can make -- bugzilla #460390
>
> Thanks for trading ideas.
>
> Hopefully, I can either get the time to get openBSD set up with X11
> and the Gimp and OOo or I can find out enough to get it to boot
> ofboot and yaboot from my Mac OS 9 partition in the next few months.
>
> Really want to see how heavy OOo is in Linux on this box. The
> NeoOffice fork of OOo was too heavy on Mac OS X 10.2 with 192M of
> RAM. If I want to try that again, or if I want to try the new OOo for
> X11 on the Mac, I'll have to upgrade the iBook to 10.3, and I'm not
> anxious to spend the money and time on that. I'd rather just get a
> new notebook that can handle it OOo better under Linux. Some of these
> webbooks look really nice, and especially handy for when I want to do
> some work on the train.
>
> More rambling than useful information here, hopefully not too much
> noise.
----
Neo-Office has been a performance pig on every installation I have seen
- such a pig that it is unusable...period...at least OOo is usable but
you are correct that on Mac OSX 10.2, there are few options.

With only 192 mb RAM, I would probably investigate whether I could get
XFCE running on ppc just to liven it up.

good luck

Craig

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