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Old 08-20-2008, 09:27 AM
"Marcelo M. Garcia"
 
Default Signing for fedora-announce with fedora-list (was Infrastructure status, 2008-08-16 UTC 1530)

Arthur Pemberton wrote:

In all fairness, I don't think it is too much of an assumption that
people would subscribe to the fedora-announce-list for announcements.
The fedora-list has always been for troubleshooting.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate#Mailing_Lists

Aside from personally sending you an email, how would you suggest that
it be made more clear. Perhaps your suggestion can be implemented.



Hi.

A suggestion to the people of the Fedora web site lists.

If it's so "natural" for a user to sign fedora-announce, this should be
stated in the web page, something like "It is highly recommend if you
are signing for fedora-list". One step further is to put a option (like
a check box) to sign for announce when signing for fedora-list.


And to make users happy, a guide on how to create filters to different
lists.


Regards

Marcelo



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Old 08-20-2008, 04:09 PM
g
 
Default Signing for fedora-announce with fedora-list (was Infrastructure status, 2008-08-16 UTC 1530)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
<snip>
> If it's so "natural" for a user to sign fedora-announce, this should be
> stated in the web page, something like "It is highly recommend if you
> are signing for fedora-list". One step further is to put a option (like
> a check box) to sign for announce when signing for fedora-list.

you do not need a bunch of detailed pages if you just read what is at;

https://redhat.com/mailman/listinfo

> And to make users happy, a guide on how to create filters to different
> lists.

filters are filters. email clients are not all same when it comes to
setting up filters. among easiest to set up is thunderbird.

you need to have a look at;

http://www.mozilla.org/support/thunderbird/



- --
tc,hago.

g
.

in a free world without fences, who needs gates.

learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz
'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/
'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFIrEGe+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAqEmAJ9AYfA+LBt2czJ4ucaLnGDxsQfJmgCfaomb
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:35 AM
"Marcelo M. Garcia"
 
Default Signing for fedora-announce with fedora-list (was Infrastructure status, 2008-08-16 UTC 1530)

g wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
<snip>
If it's so "natural" for a user to sign fedora-announce, this should be
stated in the web page, something like "It is highly recommend if you
are signing for fedora-list". One step further is to put a option (like
a check box) to sign for announce when signing for fedora-list.


you do not need a bunch of detailed pages if you just read what is at;

https://redhat.com/mailman/listinfo

And to make users happy, a guide on how to create filters to different
lists.


filters are filters. email clients are not all same when it comes to
setting up filters. among easiest to set up is thunderbird.



Hi

In the page that you suggest, I read "Announcements related to the
Fedora Project", which seems a pretty much vague. And the other says
"For users of Fedora", which is my case. To me don't seem logical that I
should sign to both.


The whole point is, if it is so obvious that one that signs for
Fedora-list should also sign for Fedora-Announce, why two separated
lists? If the announces are important and concern to the users.


Even in a high volume list like "Fedora-list", if I see a header
"[INFRASTRUCTURE TEAM - Urgent] ..." I will read the message.


Maybe because English is not my native tongue, but the word
"announcement" doesn't to suggest something that important.


About the filters, as I said, to make users happy, it isn't important,
just would be nice to have a page in Fedora Wiki.


Regards

Marcelo



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Old 08-21-2008, 11:33 AM
Michael Schwendt
 
Default Signing for fedora-announce with fedora-list (was Infrastructure status, 2008-08-16 UTC 1530)

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 11:35:49 +0100, Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:

> g wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> >
> > Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
> > <snip>
> >> If it's so "natural" for a user to sign fedora-announce, this should be
> >> stated in the web page, something like "It is highly recommend if you
> >> are signing for fedora-list". One step further is to put a option (like
> >> a check box) to sign for announce when signing for fedora-list.
> >
> > you do not need a bunch of detailed pages if you just read what is at;
> >
> > https://redhat.com/mailman/listinfo
> >
> >> And to make users happy, a guide on how to create filters to different
> >> lists.
> >
> > filters are filters. email clients are not all same when it comes to
> > setting up filters. among easiest to set up is thunderbird.
> >
>
> Hi
>
> In the page that you suggest, I read "Announcements related to the
> Fedora Project", which seems a pretty much vague.

Okay, but Fedora is the distribution released by the Fedora Project, so
related announcements should be of interest to anyone having to do
something with Fedora. The online list archive shows that only a very few
announcements have been made before.

> And the other says
> "For users of Fedora", which is my case. To me don't seem logical that I
> should sign to both.

Splitting-hairs. Many more lists could be made obsolete with such
a reasoning.

> The whole point is, if it is so obvious that one that signs for
> Fedora-list should also sign for Fedora-Announce, why two separated
> lists?

And who maintains the _list of lists_ to which announcements shall
be sent? Do you ask for major cross-posts to [more than] a dozen lists?

> If the announces are important and concern to the users.

... not just to "the users", but also to several other target groups,
who may not be subscribed to fedora-list.

Same applies to fedora-package-announce list.

> Even in a high volume list like "Fedora-list", if I see a header
> "[INFRASTRUCTURE TEAM - Urgent] ..." I will read the message.

Only if you read the list on a daily basis or if you know what
special subject marker to search for in your filters.

> Maybe because English is not my native tongue, but the word
> "announcement" doesn't to suggest something that important.

Announcements at the airport or at the train-station, do you ignore
them?

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Old 08-21-2008, 12:36 PM
"Roger Grosswiler"
 
Default Signing for fedora-announce with fedora-list (was Infrastructure status, 2008-08-16 UTC 1530)

> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 11:35:49 +0100, Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
>
>> g wrote:
>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> > Hash: SHA1
>> >
>> >
>> > Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
>> > <snip>
>> >> If it's so "natural" for a user to sign fedora-announce, this should be
>> >> stated in the web page, something like "It is highly recommend if you
>> >> are signing for fedora-list". One step further is to put a option (like
>> >> a check box) to sign for announce when signing for fedora-list.
>> >
>> > you do not need a bunch of detailed pages if you just read what is at;
>> >
>> > https://redhat.com/mailman/listinfo
>> >
>> >> And to make users happy, a guide on how to create filters to different
>> >> lists.
>> >
>> > filters are filters. email clients are not all same when it comes to
>> > setting up filters. among easiest to set up is thunderbird.
>> >
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> In the page that you suggest, I read "Announcements related to the
>> Fedora Project", which seems a pretty much vague.
>
> Okay, but Fedora is the distribution released by the Fedora Project, so
> related announcements should be of interest to anyone having to do
> something with Fedora. The online list archive shows that only a very few
> announcements have been made before.
>
>> And the other says
>> "For users of Fedora", which is my case. To me don't seem logical that I
>> should sign to both.
>
> Splitting-hairs. Many more lists could be made obsolete with such
> a reasoning.
>
>> The whole point is, if it is so obvious that one that signs for
>> Fedora-list should also sign for Fedora-Announce, why two separated
>> lists?
>
> And who maintains the _list of lists_ to which announcements shall
> be sent? Do you ask for major cross-posts to [more than] a dozen lists?
>
>> If the announces are important and concern to the users.
>
> ... not just to "the users", but also to several other target groups,
> who may not be subscribed to fedora-list.
>
> Same applies to fedora-package-announce list.
>
>> Even in a high volume list like "Fedora-list", if I see a header
>> "[INFRASTRUCTURE TEAM - Urgent] ..." I will read the message.
>
> Only if you read the list on a daily basis or if you know what
> special subject marker to search for in your filters.
>
>> Maybe because English is not my native tongue, but the word
>> "announcement" doesn't to suggest something that important.
>
> Announcements at the airport or at the train-station, do you ignore
> them?

those are broadcasted via speaker and panels and whatever they find at a train station,
they do not concentrate on one single channel, knowing exactly having people with high,
middle, low and no experience at all.

what is happening, is that now will of each experience loose their interest on this
distro while discussing the correct way of information.i think that even fedora can
learn of non-experienced people which just want to have a working system without being
signed in there and there and there, and not only for high-tech-interested subscribed in
any list.

so, the idea having the information, that updates will fail while running the update
itself, as mentionned before would be the quickest and most visible way for all.
Perphaps, there would be the possibilty to leave a hyperlink to a website for the reason
of the incident whithin the message?

Roger

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Old 08-21-2008, 12:39 PM
"Marcelo M. Garcia"
 
Default Signing for fedora-announce with fedora-list (was Infrastructure status, 2008-08-16 UTC 1530)

Michael Schwendt wrote:

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 11:35:49 +0100, Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:


g wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
<snip>
If it's so "natural" for a user to sign fedora-announce, this should be
stated in the web page, something like "It is highly recommend if you
are signing for fedora-list". One step further is to put a option (like
a check box) to sign for announce when signing for fedora-list.

you do not need a bunch of detailed pages if you just read what is at;

https://redhat.com/mailman/listinfo

And to make users happy, a guide on how to create filters to different
lists.

filters are filters. email clients are not all same when it comes to
setting up filters. among easiest to set up is thunderbird.


Hi

In the page that you suggest, I read "Announcements related to the
Fedora Project", which seems a pretty much vague.


Okay, but Fedora is the distribution released by the Fedora Project, so
related announcements should be of interest to anyone having to do
something with Fedora. The online list archive shows that only a very few
announcements have been made before.



Humm. I think you are confirming what I said. If every user should be
in both, since they have something to do with Fedora, why to separated
lists?


And the other says
"For users of Fedora", which is my case. To me don't seem logical that I
should sign to both.


Splitting-hairs. Many more lists could be made obsolete with such
a reasoning.



OK. Maybe they should. Some house keeping once in a while is good.

The whole point is, if it is so obvious that one that signs for
Fedora-list should also sign for Fedora-Announce, why two separated
lists?


And who maintains the _list of lists_ to which announcements shall
be sent? Do you ask for major cross-posts to [more than] a dozen lists?



Yes, I'm talking about Fedora-Announce and Fedora-List only.


If the announces are important and concern to the users.


... not just to "the users", but also to several other target groups,
who may not be subscribed to fedora-list.

Same applies to fedora-package-announce list.


I'm not so sure if packages-announce is in the same level as
Fedora-announce.




Even in a high volume list like "Fedora-list", if I see a header
"[INFRASTRUCTURE TEAM - Urgent] ..." I will read the message.


Only if you read the list on a daily basis or if you know what
special subject marker to search for in your filters.


Yes. I read the list every day.


Maybe because English is not my native tongue, but the word
"announcement" doesn't to suggest something that important.


Announcements at the airport or at the train-station, do you ignore
them?



If I remember right, the announcements in airports or train stations are
made to all users and it's user's responsibility to decide what to do.


Now image the opposite situation, that you have to go to a specific
place, a room, to have announcements. I think that the life of
travellers would be much more difficult.


Regards

M.

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Old 08-21-2008, 12:40 PM
"Roger Grosswiler"
 
Default Signing for fedora-announce with fedora-list (was Infrastructure status, 2008-08-16 UTC 1530)

>> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 11:35:49 +0100, Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
>>
>>> g wrote:
>>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> > Hash: SHA1
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
>>> > <snip>
>>> >> If it's so "natural" for a user to sign fedora-announce, this should be
>>> >> stated in the web page, something like "It is highly recommend if you
>>> >> are signing for fedora-list". One step further is to put a option (like
>>> >> a check box) to sign for announce when signing for fedora-list.
>>> >
>>> > you do not need a bunch of detailed pages if you just read what is at;
>>> >
>>> > https://redhat.com/mailman/listinfo
>>> >
>>> >> And to make users happy, a guide on how to create filters to different
>>> >> lists.
>>> >
>>> > filters are filters. email clients are not all same when it comes to
>>> > setting up filters. among easiest to set up is thunderbird.
>>> >
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> In the page that you suggest, I read "Announcements related to the
>>> Fedora Project", which seems a pretty much vague.
>>
>> Okay, but Fedora is the distribution released by the Fedora Project, so
>> related announcements should be of interest to anyone having to do
>> something with Fedora. The online list archive shows that only a very few
>> announcements have been made before.
>>
>>> And the other says
>>> "For users of Fedora", which is my case. To me don't seem logical that I
>>> should sign to both.
>>
>> Splitting-hairs. Many more lists could be made obsolete with such
>> a reasoning.
>>
>>> The whole point is, if it is so obvious that one that signs for
>>> Fedora-list should also sign for Fedora-Announce, why two separated
>>> lists?
>>
>> And who maintains the _list of lists_ to which announcements shall
>> be sent? Do you ask for major cross-posts to [more than] a dozen lists?
>>
>>> If the announces are important and concern to the users.
>>
>> ... not just to "the users", but also to several other target groups,
>> who may not be subscribed to fedora-list.
>>
>> Same applies to fedora-package-announce list.
>>
>>> Even in a high volume list like "Fedora-list", if I see a header
>>> "[INFRASTRUCTURE TEAM - Urgent] ..." I will read the message.
>>
>> Only if you read the list on a daily basis or if you know what
>> special subject marker to search for in your filters.
>>
>>> Maybe because English is not my native tongue, but the word
>>> "announcement" doesn't to suggest something that important.
>>
>> Announcements at the airport or at the train-station, do you ignore
>> them?
>
ah yeah, you won't even hear them, if you sit in traffic on your way to the station

Roger

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Old 08-21-2008, 01:09 PM
Michael Schwendt
 
Default Signing for fedora-announce with fedora-list (was Infrastructure status, 2008-08-16 UTC 1530)

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:36:45 +0200 (CEST), Roger Grosswiler wrote:

> >> Maybe because English is not my native tongue, but the word
> >> "announcement" doesn't to suggest something that important.
> >
> > Announcements at the airport or at the train-station, do you ignore
> > them?
>
> those are broadcasted via speaker and panels and whatever they find at a train station,
> they do not concentrate on one single channel, knowing exactly having people with high,
> middle, low and no experience at all.

This is about the word "announcement" and whether it implies anything
of importance. How do you know whether an announcement is important
to you or not? You need to pay attention to announcements to find out.

--
Let's rename fedora-announce-list to fedora-important-announce-list
and then have users complain that some of the announcements are not
considered important enough.

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Old 08-21-2008, 01:28 PM
Michael Schwendt
 
Default Signing for fedora-announce with fedora-list (was Infrastructure status, 2008-08-16 UTC 1530)

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:39:04 +0100, Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:

> Humm. I think you are confirming what I said.

No.

> If every user should be in both,

No, users should be free to choose.

> since they have something to do with Fedora, why to separated
> lists?

fedora-list => high traffic, tedious discussion threads
fedora-announce-list => very low traffic, only announcements

> > And who maintains the _list of lists_ to which announcements shall
> > be sent? Do you ask for major cross-posts to [more than] a dozen lists?
> >
>
> Yes, I'm talking about Fedora-Announce and Fedora-List only.

And subscribers of other lists don't receive the announcements?
Then let's cross-post the announcements to all fedora lists, or what?

> I'm not so sure if packages-announce is in the same level as
> Fedora-announce.

Why not? It's relevant to users, so let's cross-post all package
announcements to fedora-list and remove the separate list.
(just kidding in case you don't get it)

> >> Even in a high volume list like "Fedora-list", if I see a header
> >> "[INFRASTRUCTURE TEAM - Urgent] ..." I will read the message.
> >
> > Only if you read the list on a daily basis or if you know what
> > special subject marker to search for in your filters.
>
> Yes. I read the list every day.

What is easier? To read fedora-announce-list every day (roughly a single
message per month or so) or to skim over hundreds of messages on
fedora-list every day?

> >> Maybe because English is not my native tongue, but the word
> >> "announcement" doesn't to suggest something that important.
> >
> > Announcements at the airport or at the train-station, do you ignore
> > them?
> >
>
> If I remember right, the announcements in [...]

So, if you listen to those announcements, why do you consider
a mailing-list for Fedora related announcements not important?
Re-read your part of the quote above, please.

> Now image the opposite situation, that you have to go to a specific
> place, a room, to have announcements. I think that the life of
> travellers would be much more difficult.

See my other reply. I refer to your sentence where you comment on
the word "announcement" and its meaning. Let's stop splitting-hairs -
some Fedora users might prefer to receive announcements via SMS or IM
instead of being forced to read e-mail lists daily. Other spend
much more time on IRC or reading news feeds. The thing here
is that because you read fedora-list every day, you want to get
announcements in that single place, too, while I argue that so
far it isn't asked too much to subscribe to fedora-announce-list.
Very low traffic that could go directly to your inbox.

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Old 08-21-2008, 01:32 PM
"Roger Grosswiler"
 
Default Signing for fedora-announce with fedora-list (was Infrastructure status, 2008-08-16 UTC 1530)

> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:36:45 +0200 (CEST), Roger Grosswiler wrote:
>
>> >> Maybe because English is not my native tongue, but the word
>> >> "announcement" doesn't to suggest something that important.
>> >
>> > Announcements at the airport or at the train-station, do you ignore
>> > them?
>>
>> those are broadcasted via speaker and panels and whatever they find at a train
>> station,
>> they do not concentrate on one single channel, knowing exactly having people with
>> high,
>> middle, low and no experience at all.
>
> This is about the word "announcement" and whether it implies anything
> of importance. How do you know whether an announcement is important
> to you or not? You need to pay attention to announcements to find out.
>
> --
> Let's rename fedora-announce-list to fedora-important-announce-list
> and then have users complain that some of the announcements are not
> considered important enough.
>
ok, you are somehow about right, but finding the right medium seems to be the problem
here...do we bring the mountain to the prophet or the other way around? Even not at the
train station you have to subscribe to the broadcast...just be there. as you are, if you
make your update. why not letting tell the update-app, that it does not want to??

if you go to the doctor, will somebody else speak about your symptoms, or is it you? If
update is ill, why shouldn't update speak to me?

Roger

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