I have little experience with CD ripping so your kind help wd. be
appreciated. I have purchased a Cowon A3 (60GB) PMP for my daugther.
She has asked me to load up a selection of her classical music CD's
(83 of them!) on the Cowon. It does not use ID3 tags so I'll
organise things myself, probably by composer

I _would_ like to get all the metadata that comes on a CD when I rip
and load onto the Cowon. Not sure yet what format I'll encode to, but
I'll worry about that later. (She's a classical pianist and her ears
are golden.)

In the past I've just used cdparanoia from the comline to pull a few
.wav files. No title, (except trackN.wav) or anything. She won't be
happy with directories full of names like that! (FYI, the Cowon A3
runs Linux internally, connects to a computer via USB and looks to the
computer like an external disk.)

What applications shd. I consider. Amarok?
Suggestions and advice most welcome!
I'm running F8.

One more thing: she's entering the Conservatory next week and they require
their students to use Macs. I just purchased a MacBook Pro, if that
makes any difference in your suggestions.

Dean


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Dean S. Messing wrote:

I have little experience with CD ripping so your kind help wd. be
appreciated. I have purchased a Cowon A3 (60GB) PMP for my daugther.
She has asked me to load up a selection of her classical music CD's
(83 of them!) on the Cowon. It does not use ID3 tags so I'll
organise things myself, probably by composer




Dean





Generally speaking any current CD ripper (in GNOME it's Grip isn't it?)
and I use KaudioCreator in KDE will hit CDDB and give you plenty of
options to fill in ID3 tags on the fly for those CD's you have.
Assuming of course they aren't self created CD's. That should be more
than adequate for your needs.


As for the Mac part of it, I don't really think it matters unless you
plan on ripping the CD's on that Mac.


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Mark Haney wrote:
> Dean S. Messing wrote:
> > I have little experience with CD ripping so your kind help wd. be
> > appreciated. I have purchased a Cowon A3 (60GB) PMP for my daugther.
> > She has asked me to load up a selection of her classical music CD's
> > (83 of them!) on the Cowon. It does not use ID3 tags so I'll
> > organise things myself, probably by composer
<snip>

>
> Generally speaking any current CD ripper (in GNOME it's Grip isn't it?)
> and I use KaudioCreator in KDE will hit CDDB and give you plenty of
> options to fill in ID3 tags on the fly for those CD's you have.
> Assuming of course they aren't self created CD's. That should be more
> than adequate for your needs.
<snip>

Thanks Mark.

I'm not actually even sure what "ID3" tags are.
I only know that the Cowon A3 does _not_ for
automatic searching and organisation (according to
reviews).

What I hope will happen is that the name of the files ripped will
contain what's on the CD jacket, stuff like

"Nocture no. 20 in e minor"

and not "track3"

Several months ago, before I returned the iPod I orignally bought her
due to it not working well with linux, I was told on this list that
I'd need to use an application like Amarok with it.

I exchanged the iPod for the Cowon for several reasons, one of
which was its "linux friendliness".

Will such an application be needed with the Cowon A3?

Dean

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On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 16:49 -0700, Dean S. Messing wrote:
> Mark Haney wrote:
> > Dean S. Messing wrote:
> > > I have little experience with CD ripping so your kind help wd. be
> > > appreciated. I have purchased a Cowon A3 (60GB) PMP for my daugther.
> > > She has asked me to load up a selection of her classical music CD's
> > > (83 of them!) on the Cowon. It does not use ID3 tags so I'll
> > > organise things myself, probably by composer
> <snip>
>
> >
> > Generally speaking any current CD ripper (in GNOME it's Grip isn't it?)
> > and I use KaudioCreator in KDE will hit CDDB and give you plenty of
> > options to fill in ID3 tags on the fly for those CD's you have.
> > Assuming of course they aren't self created CD's. That should be more
> > than adequate for your needs.
> <snip>
>
> Thanks Mark.
>
> I'm not actually even sure what "ID3" tags are.

They are meta-information records included with most digital sound files
(e.g. title, composer, artist, year, bitrate, genre and so on). In
Fedora they are supported via the id3lib package. Amarok, RythmBox etc.
simply use this information to organize tracks and playlists.

> I only know that the Cowon A3 does _not_ for
> automatic searching and organisation (according to
> reviews).

I know nothing about this player, though I'd be surprised if it had no
support at all for tags. In any case, you definitely want to add tag
info to your tracks for your own future sanity (and some other model of
player you might eventually own).

Tags for CDs you rip yourself have to be either added manually or
downloaded from an online database such as http://www.freedb.org/. Most
rippers can do this for you automatically (they calculate an ID based on
the combination of track durations, which is a fairly unique fingerprint
for each CD). If for any reason your CD isn't in the database, you get
to add the tags by hand (and preferably return something to the
community by uploading them to the database). The rippers will allow you
to create tags, or you can use a package such as easytag (yum install
easytag).

> What I hope will happen is that the name of the files ripped will
> contain what's on the CD jacket, stuff like
>
> "Nocture no. 20 in e minor"

That depends on whether anyone has uploaded the tag information
somewhere. Otherwise you do it yourself.

> and not "track3"
>
> Several months ago, before I returned the iPod I orignally bought her
> due to it not working well with linux, I was told on this list that
> I'd need to use an application like Amarok with it.

I've had reasonable success with gtkpod, though the user interface
leaves a lot to be desired (note that gtkpod is only for managing your
ipod, it's not a music player though it can call on Amarok for that).

Then again I also think iTunes is overrated as a user interface.

poc

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<http://www.mp3.com/news/stories/10762.html>

Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Dean Messing wrote:
> > I'm not actually even sure what "ID3" tags are.
>
> They are meta-information records included with most digital sound files
> (e.g. title, composer, artist, year, bitrate, genre and so on). In
> Fedora they are supported via the id3lib package. Amarok, RythmBox etc.
> simply use this information to organize tracks and playlists.

So, perhaps I'll be able to use the tags + Amarok to organise
all the music, and then write the file structure out to
the Cowon?

> > I only know that the Cowon A3 does _not_ [use IDE tags] for
> > automatic searching and organisation (according to
> > reviews).
>
> I know nothing about this player, though I'd be surprised if it had no
> support at all for tags.

It evidently does not. But it has many other features that compensate
for that, including many open audio and video formats, It also has
about the highest audio quality of any player out there.

For your interest, here's a link to a Feb 08 review:
<http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/12/cowon-a3-review/>

> In any case, you definitely want to add tag
> info to your tracks for your own future sanity (and some other model of
> player you might eventually own).

Agreed, though I'm not sure what that means. Is the tag information
carried in the file name, or in some metadata area w/in the track
itself, or as separate files w/in the ripped-to directory?

> Tags for CDs you rip yourself have to be either added manually or
> downloaded from an online database such as http://www.freedb.org/. Most
> rippers can do this for you automatically (they calculate an ID based on
> the combination of track durations, which is a fairly unique fingerprint
> for each CD). If for any reason your CD isn't in the database, you get
> to add the tags by hand (and preferably return something to the
> community by uploading them to the database). The rippers will allow you
> to create tags, or you can use a package such as easytag (yum install
> easytag).

Very helpful. Do you recommend a ripper under KDE/F8 that is powerful
and easy. I have very little time to rip 83 CDs, figure out Amarok
(or whatever) for the purpose of organising things, and then putting
it all on the Cowon. Others have suggested KaudioCreator and I'm happy
to try it. Anything better? (I've only comline ripping with cdparanoia).

> > What I hope will happen is that the name of the files ripped will
> > contain what's on the CD jacket, stuff like
> >
> > "Nocture no. 20 in e minor"
>
> That depends on whether anyone has uploaded the tag information
> somewhere. Otherwise you do it yourself.

Oh, I hope not too many! Very little time, though I'm happy
to provide what I do to the community.

> > and not "track3"
> >
> > Several months ago, before I returned the iPod I orignally bought her
> > due to it not working well with linux, I was told on this list that
> > I'd need to use an application like Amarok with it.
>
> I've had reasonable success with gtkpod, though the user interface
> leaves a lot to be desired (note that gtkpod is only for managing your
> ipod, it's not a music player though it can call on Amarok for that).

I tried to get both gtkpod and Amarok to work with the newest Classic iPod.
This was last February and I was running F7 at the time. Nothing but
lock-ups, deleted data, and wasted time. One of the great things
about the Cowon is that it runs Linux internally and appears simply
as a 60GB USB disk drive to my system. Not sure if there are other
modes of communication. We just got it.


> Then again I also think iTunes is overrated as a user interface.

Never seen it but I believe you. Most Apple stuff is over-rated,
though I must say that the circular touch pad on the iPod classic
makes the tiny joystick on the Cowon seem very clumsy and retro. On
the other hand the visual UI on the Cowon and the 4" screen are very,
very nice. And the audio quality is, indeed, magnificient.

Dean

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On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 18:55 -0700, Dean S. Messing wrote:
> Is the tag information carried in the file name, or in some metadata
> area w/in the track itself, or as separate files w/in the ripped-to
> directory?

If you researched ID3 for yourself, you'd find that out. It's data
embedded in the audio file, with a number of commonly understood
relationships (e.g. title="the name of the audio file") as well as
others handled by less applications. Not to mention different versions
of ID data.

If you're into classical music, it's woefully inadequate, though.
e.g. Artist is a vague term, do you apply it to the composer or the
performer? There aren't the fields necessary for proper classification,
and the genre tagging's just stupid (a small predefined list of number
genres, with no free-form entry of type).

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On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 12:37 +0930, Tim wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 18:55 -0700, Dean S. Messing wrote:
> > Is the tag information carried in the file name, or in some metadata
> > area w/in the track itself, or as separate files w/in the ripped-to
> > directory?
>
> If you researched ID3 for yourself, you'd find that out. It's data
> embedded in the audio file, with a number of commonly understood
> relationships (e.g. title="the name of the audio file") as well as
> others handled by less applications. Not to mention different versions
> of ID data.
>
> If you're into classical music, it's woefully inadequate, though.
> e.g. Artist is a vague term, do you apply it to the composer or the
> performer? There aren't the fields necessary for proper classification,
> and the genre tagging's just stupid (a small predefined list of number
> genres, with no free-form entry of type).

Not so. ID3V2 is a lot more flexible, and includes a free-format genre
description. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id3

poc


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On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 18:55 -0700, Dean S. Messing wrote:
> <http://www.mp3.com/news/stories/10762.html>
>
> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Dean Messing wrote:
> > > I'm not actually even sure what "ID3" tags are.
> >
> > They are meta-information records included with most digital sound files
> > (e.g. title, composer, artist, year, bitrate, genre and so on). In
> > Fedora they are supported via the id3lib package. Amarok, RythmBox etc.
> > simply use this information to organize tracks and playlists.
>
> So, perhaps I'll be able to use the tags + Amarok to organise
> all the music, and then write the file structure out to
> the Cowon?

The tag info is inside the sound file, so yes.

> > > I only know that the Cowon A3 does _not_ [use IDE tags] for
> > > automatic searching and organisation (according to
> > > reviews).
> >
> > I know nothing about this player, though I'd be surprised if it had no
> > support at all for tags.
>
> It evidently does not. But it has many other features that compensate
> for that, including many open audio and video formats, It also has
> about the highest audio quality of any player out there.
>
> For your interest, here's a link to a Feb 08 review:
> <http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/12/cowon-a3-review/>
>
> > In any case, you definitely want to add tag
> > info to your tracks for your own future sanity (and some other model of
> > player you might eventually own).
>
> Agreed, though I'm not sure what that means. Is the tag information
> carried in the file name, or in some metadata area w/in the track
> itself, or as separate files w/in the ripped-to directory?

It's part of the sound file. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id3

> > Tags for CDs you rip yourself have to be either added manually or
> > downloaded from an online database such as http://www.freedb.org/. Most
> > rippers can do this for you automatically (they calculate an ID based on
> > the combination of track durations, which is a fairly unique fingerprint
> > for each CD). If for any reason your CD isn't in the database, you get
> > to add the tags by hand (and preferably return something to the
> > community by uploading them to the database). The rippers will allow you
> > to create tags, or you can use a package such as easytag (yum install
> > easytag).
>
> Very helpful. Do you recommend a ripper under KDE/F8 that is powerful
> and easy. I have very little time to rip 83 CDs, figure out Amarok
> (or whatever) for the purpose of organising things, and then putting
> it all on the Cowon. Others have suggested KaudioCreator and I'm happy
> to try it. Anything better? (I've only comline ripping with cdparanoia).

Grip is reasonable, also Sound Juicer, also k3b. There are several
others.

poc

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Tim:
>> If you're into classical music, it's woefully inadequate, though.
>> e.g. Artist is a vague term, do you apply it to the composer or the
>> performer? There aren't the fields necessary for proper
>> classification, and the genre tagging's just stupid (a small
>> predefined list of number genres, with no free-form entry of type).

Patrick O'Callaghan:
> Not so. ID3V2 is a lot more flexible, and includes a free-format genre
> description. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id3

Maybe the spec says so, but various clients don't work that way. And
you can end up with mismatching ID3 *and* ID3v2 data in the file, not to
mention fields not being available to you. Plenty a time I've typed in
a genre, on a client that let me do so, only to find it described as
something completely different, when I play it elsewhere.

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On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 00:37 +0930, Tim wrote:
> Tim:
> >> If you're into classical music, it's woefully inadequate, though.
> >> e.g. Artist is a vague term, do you apply it to the composer or the
> >> performer? There aren't the fields necessary for proper
> >> classification, and the genre tagging's just stupid (a small
> >> predefined list of number genres, with no free-form entry of type).
>
> Patrick O'Callaghan:
> > Not so. ID3V2 is a lot more flexible, and includes a free-format genre
> > description. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id3
>
> Maybe the spec says so, but various clients don't work that way. And
> you can end up with mismatching ID3 *and* ID3v2 data in the file, not to
> mention fields not being available to you. Plenty a time I've typed in
> a genre, on a client that let me do so, only to find it described as
> something completely different, when I play it elsewhere.

Presumably that's a result of them not supporting an up-to-date
standard. Nothing much to be done about that except to avoid them in
favour of those that do.

poc

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