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Old 12-06-2007, 09:24 PM
Blake Hudson
 
Default Incredible F8 updates : DEFEAT & CAVEAT

Beartooth wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:35:59 +0000, I Beartooth wrote:
>
>
>> On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 15:10:34 -0700, Ben Brown wrote:
>>
>>
>>> It sounds to me like you've enabled the development repos. Was that
>>> intentional?
>>>
>> Bless you, SIR! It was most certainly NOT intentional; I do at
>> least know better than that ...
>>
>
> [snipperoo]
>
>
> So you get in the habit, as I have for years now, when running
> pirut, of going through the -devel options. No harm has ever come of
> that, afaik, at least to me.
>
> So pirut's sudden offer of development *repos* waves no red flag
> -- and you later render your whole OS unusable, at least by anyone *not*
> a developer.
>
>

Installing the -devel packages only installs the libraries necessary for
development (compiling your own software) and will do no harm other than
take extra disk space. Using the development yum repos will install rpm
packages that are still in development and can cause harm due to bugs,
conflicts, etc.

I would suggest sticking with the updates and possibly updates-testing
(if you need new releases) repos. I would only use the development repos
if you require the latest of the latest on a few specific packages. Even
then, I would not include them in yum; preferring instead to download
packages manually on an individual basis.

-B


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Old 12-08-2007, 02:24 PM
Beartooth Sciurivore
 
Default Incredible F8 updates : DEFEAT & CAVEAT

On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:24:14 -0600, Blake Hudson wrote:

> Beartooth wrote:

>> So pirut's sudden offer of development *repos* waves no red flag
>> -- and you later render your whole OS unusable, at least by anyone
>> *not* a developer.
[snip]
> I would suggest sticking with the updates and possibly updates-testing
> (if you need new releases) repos. I would only use the development repos
> if you require the latest of the latest on a few specific packages. Even
> then, I would not include them in yum; preferring instead to download
> packages manually on an individual basis.

Good advice, certainly; but those of us who need it shouldn't
have to get burned, and lose data, to discover we needed it.

--
Beartooth Staffwright, PhD, Neo-Redneck Linux Convert
Remember I know precious little of what I am talking about.

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Old 12-08-2007, 02:47 PM
David Boles
 
Default Incredible F8 updates : DEFEAT & CAVEAT

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Beartooth Sciurivore wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:24:14 -0600, Blake Hudson wrote:
>
>> Beartooth wrote:
>
>>> So pirut's sudden offer of development *repos* waves no red flag
>>> -- and you later render your whole OS unusable, at least by anyone
>>> *not* a developer.
> [snip]
>> I would suggest sticking with the updates and possibly updates-testing
>> (if you need new releases) repos. I would only use the development repos
>> if you require the latest of the latest on a few specific packages. Even
>> then, I would not include them in yum; preferring instead to download
>> packages manually on an individual basis.
>
> Good advice, certainly; but those of us who need it shouldn't
> have to get burned, and lose data, to discover we needed it.


The default Fedora install gives you Fedora (Everything) and Fedora
Updates enabled. All others default to disabled.

In order to use the other repos, any of them, *you* had to *enable*
them. Which can be done by root in a text editor or one of several GUIs
provided by Fedora.

So please explain to me how your enabling the defaulted disabled repos
while not understanding what you were doing, your PEBCAK if you will, is
Fedora's fault? IMMV but I make the effort to know what I am doing
*before* I do it. It's safer that way. ;-)


- --


David
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Old 12-09-2007, 07:11 PM
Beartooth
 
Default Incredible F8 updates : DEFEAT & CAVEAT

On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:47:58 -0500, David Boles wrote:

> The default Fedora install gives you Fedora (Everything) and Fedora
> Updates enabled. All others default to disabled.
>
> In order to use the other repos, any of them, *you* had to *enable*
> them. Which can be done by root in a text editor or one of several GUIs
> provided by Fedora.

It's not a question of the install but of updating adding and
removing; nor of fault, but of precautions. My point was that one of
those GUIs is new, and effectively pushes itself on the unwary.

<sigh> I'm not the first nor the only one here to find it's
always the point the writer took to be most obvious which somehow fails
to get across. Let me try again.

The new pirut version *forces* me to do *something* -- until I
get rid of that default to medium, pirut will fail me.

Yet pirut's virtue is to update in greater detail than yum.
Remember that pirut is a *second* step -- the one *after* running yum
update -- certainly for me, and likely for many if not most. I gave
examples.

So when I invoke pirut for the very first time after an install
-- a fresh install -- there are already things on the machine that were
not on the medium, or were less up to date, or both.

But pirut calls for my install medium again! To get it not to, I
get a new and uncommented list of choices.

I have to make *some* choices. So I try some. *One* of them, not
there before and without warning, trashes my system -- just as
effectively as the things anaconda warns against, such as doing a fresh
install -- and I had no way of knowing it could be *that* bad, except the
hard way.

--
Beartooth Staffwright, PhD, Neo-Redneck Linux Convert
Remember I know precious little of what I am talking about.

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Old 12-09-2007, 07:30 PM
Robert L Cochran
 
Default Incredible F8 updates : DEFEAT & CAVEAT

Beartooth wrote:

On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:47:58 -0500, David Boles wrote:



The default Fedora install gives you Fedora (Everything) and Fedora
Updates enabled. All others default to disabled.

In order to use the other repos, any of them, *you* had to *enable*
them. Which can be done by root in a text editor or one of several GUIs
provided by Fedora.

I generally customize my Fedora installs for this or that, but unless I
want something special (like the livna flavor of ffmpeg, which means
consciously surfing to their website, then consciously downloading and
installing their yum repos, and then consciously running 'yum install
aaa' where aaa is whatever I am looking for) I stick with the default
Fedora repos for my updates. Any conflicts I have with the updates are
my own problem. Every now and then a dependency problem comes up in a
package, but waiting a few days for someone to fix it fixes that.
Otherwise, I have never had a problem.


Why not just do a clean install of Fedora and be happy with the yum
update defaults? Don't change them if doing so will cause you such
distress. They work most of the time (although Fedora 8 seems to have a
yum-updatesd issue that you can fix by turning it off in chkconfig,
rebooting the machine, and then doing a manual 'yum update' from the
command line.


Bob Cochran

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Old 12-09-2007, 07:58 PM
Beartooth Sciurivore
 
Default Incredible F8 updates : DEFEAT & CAVEAT

On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:30:21 -0500, Robert L Cochran wrote:

> Why not just do a clean install of Fedora and be happy with the yum
> update defaults? Don't change them if doing so will cause you such
> distress. They work most of the time (although Fedora 8 seems to have a
> yum-updatesd issue that you can fix by turning it off in chkconfig,
> rebooting the machine, and then doing a manual 'yum update' from the
> command line.

Because, as I keep saying, I run pirut. Repeatedly. There are a
lot of things -- like *all* games, *all* chat software, and anything
connected with television -- which I don't want, and which yum won't
remove. There are also a few that I do run, but either can't get from
yum, or know the names of only well enough to recognize them when I see
them. Pirut lets me make those changes.


--
Beartooth Staffwright, PhD, Neo-Redneck Linux Convert
Fedora 8; Alpine 0.99999, Pan 0.132; Privoxy 3.0.6;
Dillo 0.8.6, Galeon 2.0.3, Epiphany 2.20, Opera 9.24, Firefox 2.0
Remember I know precious little of what I am talking about.

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Old 12-09-2007, 08:37 PM
Aaron Konstam
 
Default Incredible F8 updates : DEFEAT & CAVEAT

On Sun, 2007-12-09 at 20:11 +0000, Beartooth wrote:
>
> Yet pirut's virtue is to update in greater detail than yum.
> Remember that pirut is a *second* step -- the one *after* running yum
> update -- certainly for me, and likely for many if not most. I gave
> examples.
>
This makes no sense. pirut is only the gui form of yum update.
--
================================================== =====================
All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
================================================== =====================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam@sbcglobal.net

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Old 12-09-2007, 08:51 PM
David Boles
 
Default Incredible F8 updates : DEFEAT & CAVEAT

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Beartooth wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:47:58 -0500, David Boles wrote:
>
>
> It's not a question of the install but of updating adding and
> removing; nor of fault, but of precautions. My point was that one of
> those GUIs is new, and effectively pushes itself on the unwary.
>
> <sigh> I'm not the first nor the only one here to find it's
> always the point the writer took to be most obvious which somehow fails
> to get across. Let me try again.
>
> The new pirut version *forces* me to do *something* -- until I
> get rid of that default to medium, pirut will fail me.
>
> Yet pirut's virtue is to update in greater detail than yum.
> Remember that pirut is a *second* step -- the one *after* running yum
> update -- certainly for me, and likely for many if not most. I gave
> examples.
>
> So when I invoke pirut for the very first time after an install
> -- a fresh install -- there are already things on the machine that were
> not on the medium, or were less up to date, or both.
>
> But pirut calls for my install medium again! To get it not to, I
> get a new and uncommented list of choices.
>
> I have to make *some* choices. So I try some. *One* of them, not
> there before and without warning, trashes my system -- just as
> effectively as the things anaconda warns against, such as doing a fresh
> install -- and I had no way of knowing it could be *that* bad, except the
> hard way.


Ah. I see now.

It, Pirut, *forced* you to put the DVD in the drive (a feature that
many, many asked for - to be able to still install from the original
Install-Media) or to disable the 'Install-Media' (which would be that
same DVD)?

So where does that *force you* to enable some, or many, other repos?
Ones with strange, unknown, not sure of, names to you. None of which are
familiar to you. The ones that you looked at, or should have looked at,
and wondered - what the heck is that? The ones that you should have
thought - Fedora default disabled these, they might be 'not for the
regular user' - so I should find out what they are before using them.
The ones that you did not know about but that you blindly enabled anyway?

It's called 'shooting yourself in the foot' sir. Honestly.

Reminds me of the story of the two street kids.

First one is holding something.
Second one asks "Where did you get that?"

First one says "I stole it!"
Second one asks "what is that?"
First one says "Don't know."

Second one asks "What are you going to do with it?"
First one answers "Don't know."

Second one asks "Then why did you steal it?"
First one answers "Because it was shiny!"

All due respect sir. If you are going to use Linux, especially a afast
paced distribution such as Fedora, follow this rule.

Learn first - change later.

I'm sorry that you had this problem. But only sorry. Becasue you did it
yourself by doing something without really knowing what you were doing.

I repeat - Learn first - change later.

Now. All of that said. *If* you wish to solve this problem, for you, you
should report it to bugzilla. Not as a bug but as perhaps an RFE. The
'Install-Media' repo should be, in your thinking defaulted to off
instead of defaulted on. I would suggest that you ask Rahul just how to
do this. He would know. Or know how to find out.

Good luck.
- --


David

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Old 12-09-2007, 09:01 PM
Robert L Cochran
 
Default Incredible F8 updates : DEFEAT & CAVEAT

Beartooth Sciurivore wrote:

On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:30:21 -0500, Robert L Cochran wrote:



Why not just do a clean install of Fedora and be happy with the yum
update defaults? Don't change them if doing so will cause you such
distress. They work most of the time (although Fedora 8 seems to have a
yum-updatesd issue that you can fix by turning it off in chkconfig,
rebooting the machine, and then doing a manual 'yum update' from the
command line.



Because, as I keep saying, I run pirut. Repeatedly. There are a
lot of things -- like *all* games, *all* chat software, and anything
connected with television -- which I don't want, and which yum won't
remove. There are also a few that I do run, but either can't get from
yum, or know the names of only well enough to recognize them when I see
them. Pirut lets me make those changes.




I have loads of software installed that I will never use, or will use
only rarely. Some of these packages are needed by other packages that I
do use. To me it is a "so what?" thing -- disk space is mighty cheap and
the software isn't hurting me by being there unused. I just focus on the
things I really want to do and I don't worry about the rest as long as
it doesn't pester me and it doesn't interfere with my own work. For
instance I have Ekiga and Internet Messenger installed. They are fine
just being there. I don't have to use them -- they do not stop me from
working with MySQL in any way which does interest me.


I don't know if installfests are done any more -- but attending one and
talking to the folks who do them can be worth every minute of your time
since they have great expertise in Fedora and its tools. I could benefit
from such a trip myself.


Bob

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Old 12-09-2007, 09:50 PM
Robert
 
Default Incredible F8 updates : DEFEAT & CAVEAT

Aaron Konstam wrote:

On Sun, 2007-12-09 at 20:11 +0000, Beartooth wrote:
Yet pirut's virtue is to update in greater detail than yum.
Remember that pirut is a *second* step -- the one *after* running yum
update -- certainly for me, and likely for many if not most. I gave
examples.



This makes no sense. pirut is only the gui form of yum update.


Yes, easily proved by tailing /var/log/yum.log while removing and
reinstalling a package with pirut.

(Please.... experiment with some useless package!)


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