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Old 07-29-2008, 06:16 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Creating an operating system with Linux but without GNU

Alexandre Oliva wrote:


To make the point clear, let's try a thought experiment. Imagine that
some people are so fed up with "these threads" that they set out to
create an operating system built exclusively out of Free (Libre) and
Open Source software, but without any GNU software, to avoid any
claims GNUdists might have on it.

They're fond of Linux, for they helped write it, so they decide to use
it as a kernel.

>

They look around and see there are a number of BSD operating systems
out there, so they decide to use the BSD userland to complete the
operating system, taking bits and pieces from FreeBSD, OpenBSD and
NetBSD.

It takes some effort to port the lower-level libraries, init scripts
and stuff, but eventually the thing boots up, runs a shell and it's
announced to the world, with pointers to BSD ports systems and many
pre-built ports of applications and servers that most people have come
to expect from typical distros. Lucky for them, most of the ports
build without change.


If you are going to make this effort, why not just ditch the kernel too
and re-implement any missing drivers for the *BSDs or OpenSolaris
instead? That way you lose both the zealot political movement and the
restrictive license in one fell swoop and end up with code that people
can actually use. You'd get dtrace and zfs as a bonus and the decades
of having to duplicate and waste effort because of GPL restrictions that
prevent sharing could finally be over.


--
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lesmikesell@gmail.com

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Old 07-29-2008, 07:15 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default Creating an operating system with Linux but without GNU

> If you are going to make this effort, why not just ditch
> the kernel too
> and re-implement any missing drivers for the *BSDs or
> OpenSolaris
> instead? That way you lose both the zealot political
> movement and the
> restrictive license in one fell swoop and end up with code
> that people
> can actually use. You'd get dtrace and zfs as a bonus
> and the decades
> of having to duplicate and waste effort because of GPL
> restrictions that
> prevent sharing could finally be over.
+1) See below
>
> --
> Les Mikesell
> lesmikesell@gmail.com
>
> --

To those still monitoring this thread, The comments section at Distrowatch.com is flooded with GPL stuff

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20080728&mode=67#comments

The GPL cops are asking for sources to several distros that have only produced binaries. They get the sources from a mother distro and make a few changes and then release a distro of their own. Then people complain that they are not GPL compliant and call RMS and the FSF foundation to make the bastards^{1} give back their code and comply.

All of this could be prevented if someone follows through with this idea. The hard part is actually implementing it. The Linux kernel from kernel.org, even with the non-free stuff supports a great deal of devices that are not supported over at *BSD and OpenSolaris, if those devices are made available and the support is there. It would help tremendously alleviate the problems encountered over here. While those problems are not major, they can bite back at any time

The other idea is forking the Linux kernel and get rid of the restrictions that pollute/tarnish all the good progress that has been made across the years since the birth of the project.

Regards,

Antonio

{1} Those distros that use GPL code and distribute binaries and do not post their changes or source files(with modifications), and therefore fully comply with the GPL.





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Old 07-29-2008, 07:16 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default Creating an operating system with Linux but without GNU

--- On Tue, 7/29/08, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Creating an operating system with Linux but without GNU
> To: "For users of Fedora" <fedora-list@redhat.com>
> Cc: "Marko Vojinovic" <vvmarko@panet.co.yu>
> Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 11:16 AM
> Alexandre Oliva wrote:
> >
> > To make the point clear, let's try a thought
> experiment. Imagine that
> > some people are so fed up with "these
> threads" that they set out to
> > create an operating system built exclusively out of
> Free (Libre) and
> > Open Source software, but without any GNU software, to
> avoid any
> > claims GNUdists might have on it.
> >
> > They're fond of Linux, for they helped write it,
> so they decide to use
> > it as a kernel.
> >
> > They look around and see there are a number of BSD
> operating systems
> > out there, so they decide to use the BSD userland to
> complete the
> > operating system, taking bits and pieces from FreeBSD,
> OpenBSD and
> > NetBSD.
> >
> > It takes some effort to port the lower-level
> libraries, init scripts
> > and stuff, but eventually the thing boots up, runs a
> shell and it's
> > announced to the world, with pointers to BSD ports
> systems and many
> > pre-built ports of applications and servers that most
> people have come
> > to expect from typical distros. Lucky for them, most
> of the ports
> > build without change.
>
> If you are going to make this effort, why not just ditch
> the kernel too
> and re-implement any missing drivers for the *BSDs or
> OpenSolaris
> instead? That way you lose both the zealot political
> movement and the
> restrictive license in one fell swoop and end up with code
> that people
> can actually use. You'd get dtrace and zfs as a bonus
> and the decades
> of having to duplicate and waste effort because of GPL
> restrictions that
> prevent sharing could finally be over.
>
> --
> Les Mikesell
> lesmikesell@gmail.com
>
> --
> fedora-list mailing list
> fedora-list@redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list




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Old 07-29-2008, 07:19 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default Creating an operating system with Linux but without GNU

Sorry for the double post, Lost connection to internet and clicked on send to be safe in case it did not get sent

Regards,

Antonio




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Old 07-29-2008, 09:29 PM
Alexandre Oliva
 
Default Creating an operating system with Linux but without GNU

On Jul 29, 2008, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you are going to make this effort, why not just ditch the kernel
> too and re-implement any missing drivers for the *BSDs or OpenSolaris
> instead?

Because that person really really wants to call it Linux, and if Linux
wans't even part of it, that would make even less sense.

--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
FSFLA Board Member °Sť Libre! => http://www.fsfla.org/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}

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Old 07-30-2008, 03:38 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Creating an operating system with Linux but without GNU

Alexandre Oliva wrote:

On Jul 29, 2008, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:


If you are going to make this effort, why not just ditch the kernel
too and re-implement any missing drivers for the *BSDs or OpenSolaris
instead?


Because that person really really wants to call it Linux, and if Linux
wans't even part of it, that would make even less sense.


The real problem here is that the name is a 'brand' that intentionally
drags an unwanted extreme political connotation along with what should
simply be one of several available unix-like toolsets. Just as 'free'
is deceptively used to mean restricted software, GNU means those same
restrictions and a vocal political advocacy for them to the detriment of
users who would be better served without the restrictions. If there
were some other word to give credit and attribution to the authors and
quality of the software minus the extreme political stance, I'm sure no
one would object. Having only one name to describe it is sort of like
saying you can't be religious unless you are in a crusade or inquisition
(insert your favorite atrocity-in-the-name-of-religion here...).


--
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lesmikesell@gmail.com

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Old 07-30-2008, 03:47 PM
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
 
Default Creating an operating system with Linux but without GNU

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:38:14AM -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Alexandre Oliva wrote:
>> On Jul 29, 2008, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If you are going to make this effort, why not just ditch the kernel
>>> too and re-implement any missing drivers for the *BSDs or OpenSolaris
>>> instead?
>>
>> Because that person really really wants to call it Linux, and if Linux
>> wans't even part of it, that would make even less sense.
>
> The real problem here is that the name is a 'brand' that intentionally
> drags an unwanted extreme political connotation along with what should
> simply be one of several available unix-like toolsets.

Please stop extremating things.

> Just as 'free'
> is deceptively used to mean restricted software

Please turn the reality distortion field off.

> GNU means those same
> restrictions and a vocal political advocacy for them to the detriment of
> users who would be better served without the restrictions.

Please stop lying.

> If there
> were some other word to give credit and attribution to the authors and
> quality of the software minus the extreme political stance, I'm sure no
> one would object. Having only one name to describe it is sort of like
> saying you can't be religious unless you are in a crusade or inquisition
> (insert your favorite atrocity-in-the-name-of-religion here...).

In short, please stop.

Rui

--
P'tang!
Today is Sweetmorn, the 65th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3174
+ No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
+ So let's do it...?

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Old 07-30-2008, 03:59 PM
"Julius Smith"
 
Default Creating an operating system with Linux but without GNU

I have a proposed name: UNG: "UNG's not GNU!"

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alexandre Oliva wrote:
>>
>> To make the point clear, let's try a thought experiment. Imagine that
>> some people are so fed up with "these threads" that they set out to
>> create an operating system built exclusively out of Free (Libre) and
>> Open Source software, but without any GNU software, to avoid any
>> claims GNUdists might have on it.
>>
>> They're fond of Linux, for they helped write it, so they decide to use
>> it as a kernel.
>
>>
>>
>> They look around and see there are a number of BSD operating systems
>> out there, so they decide to use the BSD userland to complete the
>> operating system, taking bits and pieces from FreeBSD, OpenBSD and
>> NetBSD.
>>
>> It takes some effort to port the lower-level libraries, init scripts
>> and stuff, but eventually the thing boots up, runs a shell and it's
>> announced to the world, with pointers to BSD ports systems and many
>> pre-built ports of applications and servers that most people have come
>> to expect from typical distros. Lucky for them, most of the ports
>> build without change.
>
> If you are going to make this effort, why not just ditch the kernel too and
> re-implement any missing drivers for the *BSDs or OpenSolaris instead? That
> way you lose both the zealot political movement and the restrictive license
> in one fell swoop and end up with code that people can actually use. You'd
> get dtrace and zfs as a bonus and the decades of having to duplicate and
> waste effort because of GPL restrictions that prevent sharing could finally
> be over.
>
> --
> Les Mikesell
> lesmikesell@gmail.com
>
> --
> fedora-list mailing list
> fedora-list@redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>



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