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Old 07-19-2008, 10:43 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default that old GNU/Linux argument

Alexandre Oliva wrote:



The core of the distribution is the kernel, called Linux.


What about GNU *core*utils? :-P :-D

And then, again, what if you remove Linux, install kFreeBSD or
OpenSolaris in its stead, rebuild glibc to export the same ABI but use
the system calls of the new kernel, and reboot? How come that would
still be Linux?


It wouldn't be Linux. It might be http://www.nexenta.org/os.

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Old 07-19-2008, 11:11 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default that old GNU/Linux argument

> Does anyone actually compile anything today?
I do
I compile mplayer from source, I compile gnome-mplayer, certain other programs as well This way I have no one to blame but myself, when the new versions are released I recompile again and am happy with the results
> Apart from developers, of course.
>
> I know FreeBSD-ers specialize in compiling everything every
> day,
> but they are strange people.
I use FreeBSD at school when I am working, It is actually fun to compile. You do something like
# cd /usr/ports/Application
# make && make install && make clean

and take off run some errands come back later and the Application should be installed(if there were no errors/bad download/or other dep programs that were not found).

Many of us Fedora users are spoiled
Sometimes I compiled my own kernel, but nowadays I am happy to use the default Fedora kernel. It is working great

BTW, when will they put out a 2.6.26 kernel out?

I know that in rawhide there is a 2.6.27-rcX kernel out, but a new 2.6.26-X kernel should be coming to mirror near you

>
> ---

Regards,

Antonio




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Old 07-19-2008, 11:17 PM
Craig White
 
Default that old GNU/Linux argument

On Sat, 2008-07-19 at 23:59 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> Carroll Grigsby wrote:
>
> > Back in the day when I was on dialup, I used
> > www.cheapbytes.com; their service was prompt and their quality was
> > excellent.
>
> So did I, so did we all.
> But that was a long time ago.
> Surely now everyone is on broadband
> with Terabyte disks that can hold 20 different OS's?
>
> Just to repeat my original comment.
> How can anyone write a 20-page document on Hurd
> without ever saying, "Download a working version from here"?
----
I suspect there is a reason that few are interested in running Hurd
----
>
> Does anyone actually compile anything today?
> Apart from developers, of course.
----
you can install Gentoo and compile/emerge to your heart's content

unless you are actually auditing the source code before you compile, I'm
not sure that there's much of difference between installing pre-compiled
binaries and compiling everything you install except for the time, disk
space and energy to do it.
----
> I know FreeBSD-ers specialize in compiling everything every day,
> but they are strange people.
----
yeah, unlike the ultra-normal Linux people who endlessly debate
licensing

Craig

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Old 07-19-2008, 11:59 PM
Timothy Murphy
 
Default that old GNU/Linux argument

Carroll Grigsby wrote:

> Back in the day when I was on dialup, I used
> www.cheapbytes.com; their service was prompt and their quality was
> excellent.

So did I, so did we all.
But that was a long time ago.
Surely now everyone is on broadband
with Terabyte disks that can hold 20 different OS's?

Just to repeat my original comment.
How can anyone write a 20-page document on Hurd
without ever saying, "Download a working version from here"?

Does anyone actually compile anything today?
Apart from developers, of course.

I know FreeBSD-ers specialize in compiling everything every day,
but they are strange people.




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Old 07-20-2008, 01:57 AM
Gene Heskett
 
Default that old GNU/Linux argument

On Saturday 19 July 2008, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>Carroll Grigsby wrote:
>> Back in the day when I was on dialup, I used
>> www.cheapbytes.com; their service was prompt and their quality was
>> excellent.
>
>So did I, so did we all.
>But that was a long time ago.
>Surely now everyone is on broadband
>with Terabyte disks that can hold 20 different OS's?
>
>Just to repeat my original comment.
>How can anyone write a 20-page document on Hurd
>without ever saying, "Download a working version from here"?
>
>Does anyone actually compile anything today?
>Apart from developers, of course.

Yes we users sure do Timothy:
[root@coyote /]# uptime
20:40:56 up 5 days, 21:32, 25 users, load average: 0.06, 0.07, 0.05
[root@coyote /]# uname -a
Linux coyote.coyote.den 2.6.26 #1 PREEMPT Sun Jul 13 22:50:19 EDT 2008 i686
athlon i386 GNU/Linux

I'm also trying to get OpenMovieEditor built and installed, but it appears the
OpenGL and GLX being shipped from mesa through fedora has been emasculated.
According to the config.log of the failed configure of dmerlin, a dependency
OpenMovieEditor needs, at least 6 functions it expected to find have been
expunged from the libraries and headers.

I'd be very interested in hearing the reasons behind its being stripped like
that.

Its also interesting that I'm now posted 2 queries about it to this list, both
so far have been greeted by total silence. Its as if its not a fedora problem
if its not generated by a fedora blessed rpm.

The NIH syndrome in full bloom.

--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Once is happenstance,
Twice is coincidence,
Three times is enemy action.
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Old 07-20-2008, 02:22 AM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default that old GNU/Linux argument

> >Does anyone actually compile anything today?
> >Apart from developers, of course.
>
> Yes we users sure do Timothy:
> [root@coyote /]# uptime
> 20:40:56 up 5 days, 21:32, 25 users, load average: 0.06,
> 0.07, 0.05
> [root@coyote /]# uname -a
> Linux coyote.coyote.den 2.6.26 #1 PREEMPT Sun Jul 13
> 22:50:19 EDT 2008 i686
> athlon i386 GNU/Linux
>
> I'm also trying to get OpenMovieEditor built and
> installed, but it appears the
> OpenGL and GLX being shipped from mesa through fedora has
> been emasculated.
> According to the config.log of the failed configure of
> dmerlin, a dependency
> OpenMovieEditor needs, at least 6 functions it expected to
> find have been
> expunged from the libraries and headers.
>
> I'd be very interested in hearing the reasons behind
> its being stripped like
> that.
>
> Its also interesting that I'm now posted 2 queries
> about it to this list, both
> so far have been greeted by total silence. Its as if its
> not a fedora problem
> if its not generated by a fedora blessed rpm.
>
> The NIH syndrome in full bloom.
>
> --

I saw the posts, but since I do not know enough about the items, I did not respond. Which many might not know or wish that you used rpms/yum to install the software. Does livna, atrpms, freshrpms provide those kinds of packages? I do not know for sure.

This is something that bites back, I have tried multiple times to install vlc media player from source, and I downloaded all the dependencies and installed them and it still fails with the reason that I do not have a ffmpeg-devel and I did have it. I installed the livna one, but for some updates I would get lots of conflicts so I decided to trash it. I got content with one media player only, mplayer.

I tried xine also by compiling, but the stripped Fedora version interferes with the one that can play dvds, so if I tried to remove it, It would remove KDE, and I decided not to pursue that either. I gave up and did not even ask why KDE depended on xine-lib-1.??, the free one(without the ability to play dvd's out of the box).

When moving to gcc 4.3, the libid3tag-,libmad stuff
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=12349

2 out of the 3 worked, but one did not, and thus I cannot get rid of the k3b does not have mp3 support, you need to install ....

I have been happy to run as it is and live with the nag screen

Post your errors. Then and only then someone may respond if they know what you can try

Regards,

Antonio




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Old 07-20-2008, 02:52 AM
Thomas Cameron
 
Default that old GNU/Linux argument

On Sat, 2008-07-19 at 16:18 -0300, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
> On Jul 18, 2008, Thomas Cameron <thomas.cameron@camerontech.com> wrote:
>
> > The core of the distribution is the kernel, called Linux.
>
> What about GNU *core*utils? :-P :-D
>
> And then, again, what if you remove Linux, install kFreeBSD or
> OpenSolaris in its stead, rebuild glibc to export the same ABI but use
> the system calls of the new kernel, and reboot? How come that would
> still be Linux?
>
> Do you mean core as in the core of an apple, as in, that part pretty
> much nobody is interested in, but without which apples would have a
> harder time reproducing? :-)
>
> BTW, would you call an apple a seed, just because it has seeds in its
> core?

Alexandre, I've watched you tilting at this windmill for months. It's
just silly. Someone else called the demand for the FSF folks to call it
GNU/Linux "childish." I didn't really think so until I skimmed through
the rest of the thread. Now I start to understand why that term was
used.

I've never denigrated or minimized GNU's participation in the success of
the Linux operating system, or any other operating systems. No doubt,
the GNU bits are of critical import. But that's not why I commented on
this thread.

My point is that GNU is only a *part* of that success. There are other
projects which have been as or more important in that success. Look at
Apache and Sendmail and BIND. By your logic, it could very well be
argued that it should be called Sendmail/Linux or Apache/Linux or
BIND/Linux, as using Linux servers for mail and web DNS services was the
bread and butter for Linux for a lot of years. Those are the services
which got Linux in the back door in the enterprise. I'm the first one
to admit that without the GNU c compiler and c libraries, those would
not have been as easily done, but *all* of them came together for the
success of what the vast majority of the community and the industry
calls "Linux."

Look at it from the outside, Alexandre. There are many who feel that
the FSF's demand for everyone to pay homage by calling it GNU/Linux is
just an attempt to steal the "glory" of Linus's success.

Seriously - we all get it. GNU kicks ass, no doubt of that at all. I
am eternally grateful for the GPL, warts and all. I am in awe of what
the FSF has done, and I am max aware that GNU was an essential part of
the success of F/OSS including Linux. I admire your passion, I'm very
passionate about Linux and I evangelize like crazy in my little corner
of the world.

But this stooping to demanding that everyone change their vernacular
*is* childish. It hurts the FSF *much* more than it helps. It
reinforces the impression that FSF folks are fanatics, which does not
help your cause at all.

Let it go, man. Just relax, enjoy the incredible success you've had,
focus all the energy you are wasting in this silly argument on making
the compiler better. Nothing will gain the FSF more respect and
acceptance than continued success. Please continue to evangelize Free
Software, I am totally on board with helping you out. But please quit
making this ridiculous argument.

Cheers,
Thomas

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Old 07-20-2008, 04:03 AM
Gene Heskett
 
Default that old GNU/Linux argument

On Saturday 19 July 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote:
>> >Does anyone actually compile anything today?
>> >Apart from developers, of course.
>>
>> Yes we users sure do Timothy:
>> [root@coyote /]# uptime
>> 20:40:56 up 5 days, 21:32, 25 users, load average: 0.06,
>> 0.07, 0.05
>> [root@coyote /]# uname -a
>> Linux coyote.coyote.den 2.6.26 #1 PREEMPT Sun Jul 13
>> 22:50:19 EDT 2008 i686
>> athlon i386 GNU/Linux
>>
>> I'm also trying to get OpenMovieEditor built and
>> installed, but it appears the
>> OpenGL and GLX being shipped from mesa through fedora has
>> been emasculated.
>> According to the config.log of the failed configure of
>> dmerlin, a dependency
>> OpenMovieEditor needs, at least 6 functions it expected to
>> find have been
>> expunged from the libraries and headers.
>>
>> I'd be very interested in hearing the reasons behind
>> its being stripped like
>> that.
>>
>> Its also interesting that I'm now posted 2 queries
>> about it to this list, both
>> so far have been greeted by total silence. Its as if its
>> not a fedora problem
>> if its not generated by a fedora blessed rpm.
>>
>> The NIH syndrome in full bloom.
>>
>> --
>
>I saw the posts, but since I do not know enough about the items, I did not
> respond. Which many might not know or wish that you used rpms/yum to
> install the software. Does livna, atrpms, freshrpms provide those kinds of
> packages? I do not know for sure.


All I could (rpmfind)find was debug packages for a version about 2 releases
earlier. For Mandriva.

>This is something that bites back, I have tried multiple times to install
> vlc media player from source, and I downloaded all the dependencies and
> installed them and it still fails with the reason that I do not have a
> ffmpeg-devel and I did have it. I installed the livna one, but for some
> updates I would get lots of conflicts so I decided to trash it. I got
> content with one media player only, mplayer.

Been there too.

>I tried xine also by compiling, but the stripped Fedora version interferes
> with the one that can play dvds, so if I tried to remove it, It would
> remove KDE, and I decided not to pursue that either. I gave up and did not
> even ask why KDE depended on xine-lib-1.??, the free one(without the
> ability to play dvd's out of the box).

The reasons to dump fedora, with its 'run only what we want you to run" attitude
have got the balances just about to tip over to a non-us distribution.

>When moving to gcc 4.3, the libid3tag-,libmad stuff
>http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=12349
>
>2 out of the 3 worked, but one did not, and thus I cannot get rid of the k3b
> does not have mp3 support, you need to install ....

I don't seem to have a need for that as the main thing I use k3b for is burning
iso's.

>I have been happy to run as it is and live with the nag screen
>
>Post your errors. Then and only then someone may respond if they know what
> you can try

Well, we are hijacking a thread here, but here is a snippet:

>configure:25733: checking for library containing glAccum
configure:25774: gcc -o conftest conftest.c -lSM -lICE -lX11 -lXext -lX11
>&5
/tmp/ccmFvTW9.o: In function `main':
conftest.c.text+0x12): undefined reference to `glAccum'
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
configure:25780: $? = 1
configure: failed program was:
| /* confdefs.h. */
| #define PACKAGE_NAME ""
| #define PACKAGE_TARNAME ""
| #define PACKAGE_VERSION ""
| #define PACKAGE_STRING ""
| #define PACKAGE_BUGREPORT ""
| #define PACKAGE "gmerlin"
| #define VERSION "0.3.7"
| #define STDC_HEADERS 1
| #define HAVE_SYS_TYPES_H 1
| #define HAVE_SYS_STAT_H 1
| #define HAVE_STDLIB_H 1
| #define HAVE_STRING_H 1
| #define HAVE_MEMORY_H 1
| #define HAVE_STRINGS_H 1
| #define HAVE_INTTYPES_H 1
| #define HAVE_STDINT_H 1
| #define HAVE_UNISTD_H 1
| #define HAVE_DLFCN_H 1
| #define SIZEOF_LONG 4
| #define SIZEOF_FLOAT 4
| #define SIZEOF_DOUBLE 8
| #define HAVE_VASPRINTF 1
| #define HAVE_LRINT 1
| #define HAVE_LRINTF 1
| #define HAVE_DECL_MSG_NOSIGNAL 1
| #define HAVE_DECL_SO_NOSIGPIPE 0
| #define ENABLE_NLS 1
| #define HAVE_GETTEXT 1
| #define HAVE_DCGETTEXT 1
| /* end confdefs.h. */
|
| /* Override any GCC internal prototype to avoid an error.
| Use char because int might match the return type of a GCC
| builtin and then its argument prototype would still apply. */
| #ifdef __cplusplus
| extern "C"
| #endif
| char glAccum ();
| int
| main ()
| {
| return glAccum ();
| ;
| return 0;
| }

And there are several more similar function not found failures, and they
culminate in:
configure:25903: checking for library containing glXChooseVisual
configure:25944: gcc -o conftest
conftest.c -lGLU -lSM -lICE -lX11 -lXext -lX11 >&5
configure:25950: $? = 0
configure:25978: result: none required
configure:26023: result: yes
configure:26067: error: Gmerlin needs OpenGL and GLX

Both of which are fedora installed versions along with the -devel matching
header files in /usr/include.

Thanks Antonio.

--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
* |Rain| prepares for polygon soup
<|Rain|> sweet merciful crap, it works?
* |Rain| faints

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Old 07-20-2008, 04:28 AM
Thomas Cameron
 
Default that old GNU/Linux argument

On Sat, 2008-07-19 at 16:26 +0200, Björn Persson wrote:
> Thomas Cameron wrote:
> > On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 02:48 +0200, Björn Persson wrote:
> > > Mark Haney wrote:
> > > > Personally, I think the demand by Stallman, and others to call Linux
> > > > 'GNU/Linux' is just stupid and childish.
> > >
> > > What exactly is it that you don't want to call "GNU/Linux"? What pieces
> > > of software does it contain?
> > >
> > > Is Udev part of what you call Linux?
> >
> > udev is not a GNU project.
> >
> > > Is Yum part of what you call Linux?
> >
> > Yum is not a GNU project.
> >
> > > Is Apache HTTPD part of what you call Linux?
> >
> > Apache is not a GNU project.
> >
> > > Is Sylpheed part of what you call Linux?
> >
> > Sylpheed is not a GNU project.
> >
> > The reality is that a modern Linux distribution contains code from the
> > *BSD projects, from the Apache project, from ISC, and from a ton of
> > other projects and groups. Should we call it "GNU/Apache/BSD/Kitchen
> > Sink/Linux?" That's just silly.
> >
> > The core of the distribution
>
> *The* distribution? Which one? Mark Haney's post didn't talk about any
> particular distribution, but this is the Fedora list after all so I'll assume
> that you meant Fedora.

Nope, you're intentionally missing the point. I'm talking about Linux
as a Linux distribution in very generic terms. Whether it's Fedora,
Ubuntu, Slackware, whatever.

> > is the kernel, called Linux. It is
> > perfectly fair and reasonable to call it plain old "Linux."
>
> Although you didn't really answer my questions, your argumentation implies
> that you consider Udev, Yum, Sylpheed and the entire Apache project parts of
> Linux, but not Kylix apparently.

Sure, they are all part of a Linux distribution. That is not to say
they can't also be part of some other OS.

> You also seem to equate Fedora with Linux. I
> won't assume without further evidence that you're a bigot

Inflammatory language like this does *not* make someone more likely to
agree with you.

> who thinks Fedora
> is the One True Distribution, so you probably consider Debian, Gentoo and
> others different versions of Linux or something like that.

Of course.

> I guess your idea of Linux is "all software that is included in at least one
> distribution based on the kernel Linux" – a bit narrower than Joe Klemmer's
> concept of "all software that can run in a Unix-like environment".

No, the current most common use of the term "Linux" really talks more
about a Linux distribution with all the associated applications. Many
if not most of those apps have zero relationship to the GNU project.
*That's* my point. For the FSF folks to claim that we should all change
our vernacular to call it GNU/Linux is no more appropriate than the
Sendmail folks demanding we call it Sendmail/Linux.

> Seeing how you point out that Yum, Apache and Sylpheed aren't GNU projects,
> yet consider them parts of Linux, it seems like you think they're subprojects
> of Linus Torvalds' Linux project and are distributed by Linus and his team.
> Surely you know that's not the case, but if they can be parts of Linux
> without being Linux projects, then I don't understand why they couldn't be
> parts of GNU/Linux without being GNU projects.

Nice try, but that's neither what I said *or* implied. You are
stretching what I said into something on another planet.

There is software from a *ton* of projects included in a typical Linux
distro. For the FSF folks to claim that we should all bow down to the
mighty FSF and change our vernacular is the height of hubris. FSF/GNU
was heavily involved in the success of Linux, to be sure. But so were
Sendmail, the Apache project, ISC and countless others. You don't see
them making asinine demands that we go around calling it Sendmail/Linux
or Apache/Linux, do you?

> > I don't
> > really get riled up at the folks who write it as GNU/Linux, but I think
> > they are being silly, and not attributing all the other fine projects
> > which have contributed code.
>
> I agree that it would be silly to talk about all of Fedora as "GNU/Linux",
> because it contains so much more than just GNU and Linux. I suppose that's
> why it's called "Fedora".
>
> It follows of course that it would be even more silly to call Fedora "Linux",
> because Linux is an even smaller part of Fedora than GNU/Linux is.

I don't think anyone on this list is claiming that Fedora == Linux. I
think what has been said over and over is that Fedora is a Linux
distribution. The vast majority of the community and the industry calls
Linux distributions just plain old "Linux." It's easy, it makes sense,
everyone knows what is being said.

My objection is *not* to giving all due credit to the FSF/GNU. As
indicated in an earlier post, I am incredibly grateful to the FSF and
all the work they've done. I am very familiar with the story of the
incomplete OS called GNU and the little kernel that Linus came up with
that fit so nicely with GNU. But to demand that we go around calling it
GNU/Linux to the exclusion of the countless other projects which made
Linux so successful is just ridiculous, plain and simple.

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Old 07-20-2008, 04:56 AM
Craig White
 
Default that old GNU/Linux argument

On Sat, 2008-07-19 at 23:03 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Saturday 19 July 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote:

> The reasons to dump fedora, with its 'run only what we want you to run" attitude
> have got the balances just about to tip over to a non-us distribution.
----
that's pure bs

You've gone on about how you're using a different distro for your wood
working thus these sentiments are hollow. You should always consider
other distros' if the urge strikes you.

Your issues here should be presented to the package you're trying to
build because they have had to solve them too - it's not likely to be a
Fedora issue but rather an issue of having the requisite packages. Under
your logic, it's Fedora's fault that it's hard to run Internet Explorer
7 under wine.
----
> >
> >Post your errors. Then and only then someone may respond if they know what
> > you can try
>
> Well, we are hijacking a thread here, but here is a snippet:
----
seems as though you deliberately highjacked the thread and to put the
exclamation point on it, you put the errors on this thread rather than
the thread you created.

Not that I care about the thread but it was sort of rude.

Craig

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