On Jul 28, 2008, Antonio Olivares <olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:

> You had been quiet for all these years

Mostly, indeed.

> What triggered the awakening of a sleeping GNU/Linux GIANT?

I had been involved in the conversations about the Free Software
Distribution Guidelines on both capacities as Free Software activist
at FSFLA and as Fedora user/irrelevant developer.

I answered the initial question, and one thing led to another. It
certainly fed the fire that I'd been talking to Les Mikesell about his
misunderstanding of the GPL on fedora-devel. I've been more active in
other Fedora lists, just not so much on the Fedora users' list.

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On Mon July 28 2008 3:34:28 pm Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
> Although you seem to remember quite well the date, you don't seem to
> remember the content.
>
> For your convenience:
>
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2008-July/msg01977.html
>
> Now I may be obtuse since english is not my native tongue, but I
> understood that he was just biting the bait sent by that troll "Morton
> Harrow" who cross posted with some "GNU GPL 4" bullshit.

Despite your 'eloquence', I did revisit this. What I see is a post by Stallman
in response to Harrow, which was cc'd to multiple lists and individuals, for
whatever reason. What you folks who are so wrapped in your evangelism don't
see, is how easy it was to see that Stallman post come in that day, which I
still have in my email folder (no 'remembering' necessary), and think this was
just another way of posting to the 'endless thread' -------- you (that's the
collective that have participated in the thread, not YOU personally) have
ventured far afield from the original issue, have changed the subject several
times, and have talked about many things ---- I stand by what I stated, though
freely admitting I may have been wrong about Stallman's post (though, I don't
see that as proven by my review, OR, your assertions). You 'evangelists' have
been hovering over your keyboards for many days, your fingers superglued to the
enter key, pouncing over every thing that's said, in what has now turned into
a most irritating rudeness and lack of semblance of civility.

I have no power to moderate you off this list, and actually, I don't even wish
to, but, like you, I can state my views...and now, having stated them, I shall
say no more to feed this - you may have the last word.

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> >> > personal attack because we do not agree with
> your purist ways.
> >>
> >> Purist? Who's the one denying that it's
> not a combination of GNU
> >> with Linux, but rather pure Linux? :-)
>
> > I did not say pure Linux. You are putting words* that
> I did not write here.
>
> Note the :-). /me makes jokes, too.
Cool I did not catch that one!
>
> > I am only resenting that name be forced when I simply
> know the
> > system as a Linux system or Linux Operating System.
>
> I just don't understand why you resent the messager,
> rather than those
> who fooled you for all these years.
>
I do not have any hate towards you. I actually like you. If you ever come to the US close to the border with Mexico, I would invite to a couple of beers I do not hate anyone. I might seem like a bad person, because I question many things. Many people do not like me because they say that I am a rebel without a cause.
>
> Think of it this way: if you keep on calling the operating
> system
> Linux, you not only keep on strenghtening the movement
> against the
> fundamental ideals of software freedom, you also deny those
> who
> believe the name you choose and what it implies an
> opportunity to
> learn about both movements and make up their own minds.
> You bias them
> against software freedom.

I am sorry but I happen to like the Linux name very much. At school they call me the Linux Man/Linux Dude. IT will be very hard to convince them to call me GNU/Linux man. Some of the people say that I am a radical and that I should have lived in the 60's when many social movements began in
the US.

> You bias them against software freedom.

Not necessarily, I believe Les has a very strong point when he wrote:

> GNU is a radical political movement. Putting the name next
> to Linux
> makes it seem as though Linus himself endorses the
> movement. But that's
> rather dishonest, given that Linus has always stayed away
> from such
> political zealotry.

So I added a +1) and sent it in.

Similarly I agree with many things from the FSF, I do believe in the ideas that software be free and made available to all. What I do not believe is in the approach that they take. I also do not agree to certain things about the Free and Open Source licenses. It creates a great deal of confusion that many users on this list and creators of softwares are not excited about dealing with the FSF.

I make comparisons to the Bible. I like the old Testament, I do not like the New Testament too much. I have to pick and choose what I like. I do not like everything. I liked it in the old testament when someone disobeyed, he/she was punished on the spot. The new testament lets the oppressors last longer till they pay.
>
> If that's what you want to accomplish, nothing I could
> say or ask
> would change it.
But you have opened my eyes in some ways. While I do not agree with you 100% of the way, I have learned many things that I did not know before
>
> But if you believe in letting people learn, think and
> decide for
> themselves,
This is the right way
> rather than censoring information some
> opponents of the
> Free Software movement want to hide from them to keep them
> in
> ignorance and stop them from pursuing freedom, pretty
> please make the
> tiny effort it takes to get used to naming the system
> GNU+Linux or
> GNU/Linux.
+1
>
> --

Regards,

Antonio




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On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 14:05 +0000, Marko Vojinovic wrote:

> Come on folks, what do you say? Is anyone willing to co-found a non-profit
> organization with me for this cause? I apel on your morality, ethics and a
> feeling on what is the Right Thing here.

Just use your quantum intentionality and none of this happened! While
you're at it, would you also add trolley cars to your intentionality so
gas could be cheap again?? You physicists can do it! <huge grin> Ric

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On Jul 29, 2008, Antonio Olivares <olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:

> If you ever come to the US close to the border with Mexico,

I went to San Diego some 9 years ago, to speak at a Usenix
conference. Is that the location you're speaking of?

> I would invite to a couple of beers

I'd pass the beer, but I'd enjoy the company :-) Thanks,

> I might seem like a bad person, because I question many things.

Questioning is actually a good trait, but some people indeed mistake
that for a bad one.

> Many people do not like me because they say that I am a rebel
> without a cause.

They must have some hidden reason to put such a label on you :-)

> I am sorry but I happen to like the Linux name very much. At school
> they call me the Linux Man/Linux Dude.

Hey, people do that to me, too. I promptly correct that, and if I get
a blank stare, I know I have work to do :-)

> IT will be very hard to convince them to call me GNU/Linux man.

You could try, but even if you don't succeed, it would be very
important that *you* used it, because you're a role model to them.

> I believe Les has a very strong point when he wrote:

>> GNU is a radical political movement. Putting the name next to
>> Linux makes it seem as though Linus himself endorses the movement.
>> But that's rather dishonest, given that Linus has always stayed
>> away from such political zealotry.

> So I added a +1) and sent it in.

So it would be dishonest to retain the name of the system that Linus
chose to use along with his kernel because of imaginary concerns that
he himself waved away when he said he didn't care if it was called
GNU/Linux, but it's honest to rename it to something that makes it
harder for the software to achieve its goal, and denies credit to its
authors while at that?

Double standards?

If Linus was concerned about having the GNU name next to Linux, he
wouldn't have oked the name. If he was concerned about distancing
himself from GNU, he might as well have kept a distance from all that
GNU software.

That argument doesn't hold even ice, let alone water :-)

> Similarly I agree with many things from the FSF, I do believe in the
> ideas that software be free and made available to all. What I do
> not believe is in the approach that they take. I also do not agree
> to certain things about the Free and Open Source licenses.

We can get back to that one or two months from now :-) Please Cc: me
explicitly when you want to start talking about these.a

> It creates a great deal of confusion that many users on this list
> and creators of softwares are not excited about dealing with the
> FSF.

The confusion is created mostly by spreaders of FUD. The best way to
deal with it is to educate people as to the facts, which ends up
exposing and denouncing the FUD.

> But you have opened my eyes in some ways. While I do not agree with
> you 100% of the way, I have learned many things that I did not know
> before

Good. (part of the) mission accomplished :-)

Best,

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Alexandre Oliva wrote:



GNU is a radical political movement. Putting the name next to
Linux makes it seem as though Linus himself endorses the movement.
But that's rather dishonest, given that Linus has always stayed
away from such political zealotry.


So I added a +1) and sent it in.


So it would be dishonest to retain the name of the system that Linus
chose to use along with his kernel because of imaginary concerns that
he himself waved away when he said he didn't care if it was called
GNU/Linux, but it's honest to rename it to something that makes it
harder for the software to achieve its goal, and denies credit to its
authors while at that?

Double standards?

If Linus was concerned about having the GNU name next to Linux, he
wouldn't have oked the name. If he was concerned about distancing
himself from GNU, he might as well have kept a distance from all that
GNU software.

That argument doesn't hold even ice, let alone water :-)


He just seems like such a nice guy and it is wrong to take advantage of
his agreeable nature to make it incorrectly appear that he supports the
radical political zealotry.


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On Jul 28, 2008, Antonio Olivares <olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> > RMS is the one requesting this

>> I am. He's not here. He's not even aware I'm doing this here.

> But you are under his jurisdiction, He is the leader of the FSF/GNU.
> He is obviously in command.

He may very well be in command of something or someone, but he has no
authority over me. I just happen to share and promote the goals of
the Free Software movement, like he does. I learned a lot from him.
But that doesn't put him in command as far as I'm concerned.

> IT is not my FAULT that they have not succeeded or are not succeeding

In as much as you help the other side by adopting an unfair name, it
is indeed in part your fault. You've become an accomplice of this
unfairness.

> Only Debian and a few others have caved in to those requests. Not
> even Ubuntu which is based on Debian call themselves Ubuntu
> GNU/Linux is that an insult to the Debian and GNU camps?

Fedora and Ubuntu are the full distro names. These names are fine,
they don't demean GNU or promote Linux over GNU.

Fedora Linux or Ubuntu Linux would have been unfair.

Saying Fedora and Ubuntu are Linux distributions is unfair.

And, worse than being unfair, these names don't help correct the
social injustice that the Free Software movement and the GNU project
were created to correct.

>> Yeah, the kernel could have been named Freax. Then they'd have
>> renamed the GNU operating system to Freaks.

> Nope, by the arguments they would have named it GNU/Freaks in honor
> of the GNU guys who deserve the credit too.

That's what would have been the right thing to do. But they chose
early on not to do the right thing, as history shows.

>> And it's not GNU utilities. It's an operating
>> system.

> But GNU utilities exist in *BSD camps as well, and the name GNU/*BSD
> is not used or required.

Exactly. Because it's not about the GNU utilities, it's the GNU
operating system. GNU utilities are a part of it, but far from all.

> Linux Distributions include that and they call themselves Linux
> Distributions not GNU/Linux Distributions with the excepion of
> Debian GNU/Linux.

That a lot of people insist in a mistake doesn't make it right.

Debian is far from the only one who uses a fair name for the distros,
or to describe it. Heck, there's even a commercial distro in Brazil
called Insigne GNU/Linux, by Insigne Free Software do Brasil.

> Fedora is not free as you have said so yourself. So I am not
> running a free GNU/Linux distribution. Why should I say Fedora
> GNU/Linux if it is not pure and it has bad stuff?

http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#reserve

> Yet your buddies still leech off Fedora and get their guidelines off
> the Fedora site

*blinks* What?!? How did you get the impression that any such thing
happened? That Rahul, Spot and others worked along with the FSF to
come up with those guidelines and to review licenses used in Fedora
packages is nothing at all like the FSF just taking Fedora's
guidelines. Heck, Fedora even conflicts with those guidelines in
important ways, both in policy and package set. Why would anyone say
Fedora is a Free distribution when it isn't?

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> In as much as you help the other side by adopting an unfair
> name, it
> is indeed in part your fault. You've become an
> accomplice of this
> unfairness.
Okay, they are the ones who are wrong, but they are not free as you have pointed out. Maybe it is okay to call the projects Linux because they are non-free.

For those that want to run truly free systems TRUE(GNU/Linux) may vistit
http://www.fsfla.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-libre

and download a free* kernel from
http://www.fsfla.org/~lxoliva/fsfla/linux-libre/

This way the OS that they will be running will be the true GNU/Linux that you and other FSF promoters are asking.

Ours is not a true GNU/Linux, because it contains BAD stuff that makes it nonfree, is that a valid conclusion?

> > Linux Distributions include that and they call
> themselves Linux
> > Distributions not GNU/Linux Distributions with the
> excepion of
> > Debian GNU/Linux.
>
> That a lot of people insist in a mistake doesn't make
> it right.

Now I have an argument that makes it right. They are non-free they include stuff that is no-no from FSF. See top comment
>
> Debian is far from the only one who uses a fair name for
> the distros,
> or to describe it. Heck, there's even a commercial
> distro in Brazil
> called Insigne GNU/Linux, by Insigne Free Software do
> Brasil.
Cool, I did not know that . I have only heard of Conectiva, which was bought out by Mandrake Soft and became Mandriva. I have heard of Kurumin and also of GoblinX, which is a sister distro of Slax, one of my favorites along with Fedora. There are others that have XP like qualities and also some based on Gentoo like Litrix as well
>
> > Yet your buddies still leech off Fedora and get their
> guidelines off
> > the Fedora site
>
> *blinks* What?!? How did you get the impression that any
> such thing
> happened? That Rahul, Spot and others worked along with
> the FSF to
> come up with those guidelines and to review licenses used
> in Fedora
> packages is nothing at all like the FSF just taking
> Fedora's
> guidelines. Heck, Fedora even conflicts with those
> guidelines in
> important ways, both in policy and package set. Why would
> anyone say
> Fedora is a Free distribution when it isn't?
We were fooled Damn I was very convinced that Fedora followed all the rules, could you at least acknowledge that Fedora is 95% free or something along those lines. IT is not all that BAD is it?
>
> --

Regards,

Antonio




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