> > I really could not care less what it is called, just
> that the
> > bleedin' thing works.
>
> If you don't care, then wouldn't object to calling
> it GNU/Linux,
> right?
>

A kind person posted the following at Distrowatch.com, you can check it out for yourselves if you want to confirm it
<quote>
30 • Re post #23 (by Anonymous on 2008-07-21 20:19:06 GMT from Canada)
Plse see: http://www.linuxmark.org/

Linux is the kernel ONLY
All else are add-ons to actually be capable of doing things
(E.G. from small stand_alone utilities to huge Apps)

What you generically called "linux" is in fact, varied distributions
of O/Systems -
~ Bundled as a package, encompassing some release of the (often modified) basic Linux kernel

Irregardless of R.Stallman's opinions & many wonderful FSW contributions:
"Gnu" is but one portion of all

By "closed source" if you mean proprietary code;
All is dependent on filling licensing requirements

The GNU philosophy is ~ to use no proprietary code whatsoever
( arguably impractical if a needed driver is closed source)

After how many years, the *HURD* kernel project is still incomplete
http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/

To satisfy any queries such as those - It may be better to source
"official" original sites of Ea.

An interesting (VERY lengthy) read:

http://www.softpanorama.org/People/Torvalds/summing_up.shtml#Linux_as_a_accidental_creator_of_ a_new_bios

Contrary to his unfortunate quote: Mr. Torvalds has never had aspirations to be a "god"

At present, the FOSS movement is so vast > NO single person would be capable of
maintaining any but some *portion* of the kernel aspects

Thankfully we all benefit from talented coders & feedback from ALL users

This recent quote may summarise all:

"Linux is moving away from its founding ideals and not even Linus Torvalds can change it"

Hope the above, answers some of your questions
</quote>

Regards,

Antonio




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On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 23:33:17 +0200
Björn Persson <listor3.rombobeorn@tdcpost.se> wrote:

> måndagen den 21 juli 2008 skrev Les Mikesell:
> > Björn Persson wrote:
> > > You're still talking as if your opponents want to name entire
> > > distributions "GNU/Linux". I'm not so sure that there really is anyone
> > > who wants to name entire distributions "GNU/Linux". Are you sure that
> > > there are people who want to do this? Do you have any evidence?
> >
> > I don't have much occasion to talk about a subset that is more than a
> > kernel and less than a distribution with real applications so I'm not
> > sure where or why such a name would be used.
>
> It could for example be used in sentences like these:
>
> "Fedora is a collection of programs and libraries built around the operating
> system GNU/Linux."

Linux is a trademark, please use it properly in combination with other
marks.

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On Jul 21, 2008, Antonio Olivares <olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I actually did not check all the pages, would you mind reposting them?

The links are at the end of this entry in the blong:
http://fsfla.org/blogs/lxo/2008-07-21-gnu+linux

> I am a happy Linux User and it is definitely impossible to please
> everyone out there as for a proper name that pleases everyone.

Fortunately, you don't have to please everyone.

You can decide to privilege some while insulting others, or use the
name that one major author begs for and the other doesn't object to.

Why would you choose to insult us and bring us harm, when the
alternative won't bring harm to anyone and most people don't care one
way or another?

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måndagen den 21 juli 2008 skrev Les Mikesell:
> Björn Persson wrote:
> > You're still talking as if your opponents want to name entire
> > distributions "GNU/Linux". I'm not so sure that there really is anyone
> > who wants to name entire distributions "GNU/Linux". Are you sure that
> > there are people who want to do this? Do you have any evidence?
>
> I don't have much occasion to talk about a subset that is more than a
> kernel and less than a distribution with real applications so I'm not
> sure where or why such a name would be used.

It could for example be used in sentences like these:

"Fedora is a collection of programs and libraries built around the operating
system GNU/Linux."
"GNU/Linux is a good operating system to run a web server on."
"Specialized firewalls, NAS devices and other appliances often run slimmed
versions of GNU/Linux."

Nobody is asking you to talk about it every day if you don't have a reason.
All they ask for is that you call it "GNU/Linux" instead of "Linux" when you
do talk about it. If you're talking about an entire distribution then you're
welcome to just call it "Fedora", but if you're going to include "Linux" in
the name of the distribution, then they ask you to also unclude "GNU".

At least I think that's the FSF's position.

Björn Persson

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On Jul 21, 2008, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:

> The other 85% has nothing to do with GNU, and is usually the driving
> force behind people bothering to install the GNU portions at all.

> That is, I don't install a system so I can run cp or tar or the other
> minor infrastructure components, I install it to run some useful
> applications.

And still, even though the kernel Linux is even further away from what
you really want to run, you prefer to apply its name to the whole,
rather than the name of the larger project it was combined with, and
that set the ground for it and for all this driving force you speak
of.

Odd, eh?

> So it's not so much wanting to include the names of all the more
> attractive applications in the distribution name as not seeing any
> reason to glorify minor components

Heh. I can't even tell what side you're arguing for any more :-)

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> > I actually did not check all the pages, would you mind
> reposting them?
>
> The links are at the end of this entry in the blong:
> http://fsfla.org/blogs/lxo/2008-07-21-gnu+linux
Those links I saw, I was not sure, that is why I asked for them again.
Thank you for posting them
>
> > I am a happy Linux User and it is definitely
> impossible to please
> > everyone out there as for a proper name that pleases
> everyone.
>
> Fortunately, you don't have to please everyone.
>
> You can decide to privilege some while insulting others, or
> use the
> name that one major author begs for and the other
> doesn't object to.
>
> Why would you choose to insult us and bring us harm, when
> the
> alternative won't bring harm to anyone and most people
> don't care one
> way or another?
I am not insulting anyone and if I did, I apologize, I have asked some basic questions about why? If I am not mistaken, RMS wants it be called GNU/Linux to honor the work done by GNU and there is no doubt that they deserve all the credit! What many people here are against is that there are other projects that have contributed as well and have done a great deal too, without asking for their name be attached to ????/Linux.

A person posted the following at http://Distrowatch.com about the question what is Linux? What about closed source drivers in Linux?

quote
Please see: http://www.linuxmark.org/

Linux is the kernel ONLY
All else are add-ons to actually be capable of doing things
(E.G. from small stand_alone utilities to huge Apps)

What you generically called "linux" is in fact, varied distributions
of O/Systems -
~ Bundled as a package, encompassing some release of the (often modified) basic Linux kernel

Irregardless of R.Stallman's opinions & many wonderful FSW contributions:
"Gnu" is but one portion of all

By "closed source" if you mean proprietary code;
All is dependent on filling licensing requirements

The GNU philosophy is ~ to use no proprietary code whatsoever
( arguably impractical if a needed driver is closed source)

After how many years, the *HURD* kernel project is still incomplete
http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/

To satisfy any queries such as those - It may be better to source
"official" original sites of Ea.

An interesting (VERY lengthy) read:

http://www.softpanorama.org/People/Torvalds/summing_up.shtml#Linux_as_a_accidental_creator_of_ a_new_bios

Contrary to his unfortunate quote: Mr. Torvalds has never had aspirations to be a "god"

At present, the FOSS movement is so vast > NO single person would be capable of
maintaining any but some *portion* of the kernel aspects

Thankfully we all benefit from talented coders & feedback from ALL users

This recent quote may summarise all:

"Linux is moving away from its founding ideals and not even Linus Torvalds can change it"
/quote


Regards,

Antonio






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On Jul 21, 2008, "Mark Haney" <mhaney@ercbroadband.org> wrote:

> Let's change grep to gnu/grep! Or bash to GNU/bash.

These are actually the names of the programs that are used in
GNU/Linux distributions.

> The point I'm making is this. I have no trouble giving credit where
> credit is due.

Good. Thank you. Please do.

> I do have a problem with people demanding it.

I do have a problem with people demanding that the operating system be
called Linux.

I do have a problem wtih people demanding me to not ask them to
correct this unfair mistake.

> Those people don't deserve the credit if what they did was for their
> own glorification.

Agreed.

Turns out it wasn't. That's the motivation of those who extended the
name Linux from the kernel to the OS, to distance themselves from the
ideals of the GNU project.

> To me, this is what this argument sounds like.

How about the reverse argument, of those who changed the name of the
GNU OS first?

> Please, take pride in the work you've done, don't cheapen it by acting
> like a spoiled glory hound. Seriously.

You seem to be missing the goal we're *actually* working for, and that
the people who renamed the project want to deny us.

Please help us.

> Can we drop this now?

Will you help us?

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Mark Haney wrote:
> But this name change business is silly. I mean why stop there? Let's
> change grep to gnu/grep! Or bash to GNU/bash. I could go on and on here.

Heh!

$ grep --version
grep (GNU grep) 2.5.1

Copyright 1988, 1992-1999, 2000, 2001 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO
warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

$ bash --version
GNU bash, version 3.2.33(1)-release (x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu)
Copyright (C) 2007 Free Software Foundation, Inc.

No, it's not "GNU and Grep" or "GNU and Bash" but it is GNU Grep and GNU Bash,
just the same as it is Microsoft Word and Adobe Acrobat.

Björn Persson

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On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 20:53 +0200, Björn Persson wrote:
> måndagen den 21 juli 2008 skrev Patrick O'Callaghan:
> > On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 15:23 +0200, Björn Persson wrote:
> > > Tim wrote:
> > > > The majority will understand "Linux" as being an OS, the whole
> > >
> > > thing,
> > >
> > > > one of the many OS distros that are similar to each other (*), but
> > >
> > > not
> > >
> > > > understand it as referring to just the kernel.
> > >
> > > And then you'll hear arguments like "You think Windows is bloated?
> > > Linux is
> > > *much* worse! Look, Debian is twenty-one CDs! Thirteen gigabytes! My,
> > > what a
> > > horribly bloated OS!". They think "the whole thing" is the OS, and so
> > > they
> > > compare "the Windows OS" to "the Linux OS", not understanding that
> > > Debian is
> > > a huge collection of programs more comparable to Windows plus Office
> > > plus
> > > Visual Studio plus MS SQL Server plus Photoshop plus lots and lots of
> > > other
> > > third-party programs, and that nobody will ever install all those 13
> > > GB of
> > > Debian packages.
> >
> > So you explain it. You think you aren't going to have to explain it
> > anyway?
>
> How do you expect me to explain it if I'm supposed to let them continue
> thinking that Linux, operating system and distribution are all the same
> thing?

Now you're being obtuse. Explaining it means telling them what you think
about it. No-one is obliging you to adopt a specific viewpoint.

> May I inform beginners that Linux is only a part of Debian so that I can
> explain why Debian is so much bigger than Windows? Please?

Fine by me.

poc

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On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 20:53 +0200, Björn Persson wrote:
> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Truth be told, normally I'm on the other side of this kind of argument.
> > I prefer exactness wherever possible. I've simply learned to save my
> > energies for things that matter, and that I might eventually change.
>
> So, since you are in fact investing your energy in this argument, I must
> conclude that you think it's important to make the FSF stop requesting that
> people say "GNU/Linux", and that you think they may eventually give up.

I have no way to "make" the FSF do anything. I'm just don't think this
effort is going to get anywhere. In fact the more they request this
terminological change, the more people seem determined to resist it.
Many people resent being told they're unethical or unprincipled. Who
knew?

> I think you may have underestimated their determination.

Oh, I don't think so.

poc

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