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Old 07-13-2008, 09:15 PM
Alan Cox
 
Default Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?

> My opinion is that it's political in nature. GNU doesn't like Red

It is political for sure - GNU has a highly public agenda around free
software and what is and is not "free".

> Hat and, by extension, anything that Red Hat contributes to. OC, I have
> absolutely no proof nor reason for this opinion. But it's a gut feel.

The FSF policy on not listing stuff they consider to have non-free
elements hasn't changed much in years. I don't really see them as picking
on Red Hat here.

Alan

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Old 07-13-2008, 09:43 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?

Alexandre Oliva <aoliva <at> redhat.com> writes:
> With the current policies, more and more non-Free Software is being
> welcomed into Fedora.

You're intentionally omitting one detail: all that non-Free software isn't
software which runs on the CPU, it's firmware which runs on peripherals. The
thing is that most hardware these days has some form of embedded processor and
is driven by firmware. There's only one difference: the hardware which "does
not need" firmware actually has that firmware on some ROM inside the device.
But recently, more and more hardware manufacturers decided to save costs by
removing that ROM and having the computer upload the firmware instead, which is
why firmware is included with operating systems. The problem is: by banning
firmware from operating systems, you do not succeed in getting rid of it. What
you're getting is that the firmware is inside some ROM, with no hope whatsoever
of ever replacing it with Free Software. If the firmware is uploaded from the
main CPU, it is at least technically possible to replace it with Free Software.
But the way you'll make that happen is by getting such Free firmware written,
not by banning the existing firmware blobs and thus forcing users to only use
hardware with hardcoded firmware in ROM, which is impossible to replace with a
Free equivalent.

The real problem to solve is that there is almost NO Free firmware, not that
distributions include non-Free firmware. Even OpenBSD, which got an award from
the FSF for pushing for redistributable firmware, was pushing just for that:
_redistributable_ firmware (which is what the firmware in Fedora is, too), and
Free drivers (the famous fight against "the Blob"), but they explicitly did NOT
ask for Free firmware. (This may have changed since, but I am not aware of such
a change in position.)

I agree with you that there's a problem to solve, and with technologies like
Larrabee coming, i.e. GPUs with x86 cores, where there will be more x86 cores
on the GPU than on the CPU, that may well become a major problem soon (if you
have 4 x86 cores running a Free OS and 16 x86 cores running non-Free GPU
firmware, can you really claim with a straight face that you're running a Free
OS?), but I think you're trying to solve the wrong problem.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 07-13-2008, 09:44 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?

Alexandre Oliva wrote:



How is it that Fedora is not on this list?
http://www.gnu.org/links/links.html#FreeGNULinuxDistributions



gNewsSense just recently came around and they are on the list. What's
up with that?


Although there is non-Free Software included in Fedora, AFAIK the most
serious issue is a matter of policy ("non-Free Software is
acceptable"; "shipping these non-Free bits are not bugs that need
fixing right away") rather than the actual presence of non-Free
Software. If the right policies were in place, given enough manpower,
all non-Free Software would be eventually shoved out of Fedora. With
the current policies, more and more non-Free Software is being
welcomed into Fedora.


Errr... "right policies" isn't exactly a valid description. I'd call it
misguided or cultish instead.


I ran across a surprisingly perceptive description of the confusion of
GPL restrictions with freedom here:

http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/08/1832255&from=rss.

--
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Old 07-13-2008, 10:10 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?

--- On Sun, 7/13/08, Joe Klemmer <klemmerj@webtrek.com> wrote:

> From: Joe Klemmer <klemmerj@webtrek.com>
> Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
> To: "For users of Fedora" <fedora-list@redhat.com>
> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 1:24 PM
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>
> >> Wireless firmware inclusion I'd imagine.
> >>
> >>> How is it that Fedora is not on this list?
> >>>
> http://www.gnu.org/links/links.html#FreeGNULinuxDistributions
> >>>
> >>> gNewsSense just recently came around and they
> are on the list. What's
> >>> up with that?
> >
> > (please don't top post, thanks.)
> >
> > wireless firmware inclusion? in what way? AFAIK,
> you still have to
> > download the broadcom drivers after the fact. has
> that changed while i
> > wasn't looking?
>
> My opinion is that it's political in nature. GNU
> doesn't like Red
> Hat and, by extension, anything that Red Hat contributes
> to. OC, I have
> absolutely no proof nor reason for this opinion. But
> it's a gut feel.
>
> --

BTW,

Blag is in the list/link provided:

http://www.gnu.org/links/links.html#FreeGNULinuxDistributions

It contains mp3 codecs and all of the "non-free" stuff that fedora does no include.

Q Why are they "more free" than Fedora?

A Because Fedora includes Firmware and those guys don't.

BTW,
while reading their page they quote that they do base their definitions along with Fedora's definitions. And yes because of the firmware, Fedora is not a free distribution according to their definitions.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html

Regards,

Antonio




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Old 07-14-2008, 05:10 AM
g
 
Default Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?

Joe Klemmer wrote:
My opinion is that it's political in nature. GNU doesn't like Red
Hat and, by extension, anything that Red Hat contributes to. OC, I have
absolutely no proof nor reason for this opinion. But it's a gut feel.


very political.

read a few pages on gnu site and you will believe gnu is only one who
has written anything for linux, other than linus t.


--

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g
.

in a free world without fences, who needs gates.

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Old 07-14-2008, 08:59 AM
Alexandre Oliva
 
Default Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?

On Jul 13, 2008, Antonio Olivares <olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:

> It contains mp3 codecs and all of the "non-free" stuff that fedora
> does no include.

There's a faulty assumption here.

mp3 codecs are not necessarily non-Free. The existence of a patent
valid in a few countries doesn't turn all implementations of that idea
into non-Free Software.

Fedora chooses not to ship that software not because it's non-Free
(it's not), but rather because it's based in the US, where there are
patents with litigant holders allegedly covering the technology. It's
risk management, not an ethical or moral issue.

> Q Why are they "more free" than Fedora?

Because they are :-)

They take out all non-Free Software that Fedora ships, and they add
more Free Software that Fedora chooses not to ship.

> A Because Fedora includes Firmware and those guys don't.

That's not all.

They actually *remove* Firmware that Fedora prefers to ship, falsely
labeled as GPLv2, even.

And, more importantly, they have *policy* to reject non-Free Software.
Policy is actually more important than what gets shipped, to some
extent. For example, gNewSense shipped accidentally some non-Free
stuff drivers and firmwares unknowingly inherited from Ubuntu. Did
this cause gNewSense to be removed? No, because they proceeded to
remove it as soon as they could, according to their stated policy.

--
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Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
FSFLA Board Member ¡Sé Libre! => http://www.fsfla.org/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}

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Old 07-14-2008, 09:02 AM
Alexandre Oliva
 
Default Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?

On Jul 14, 2008, g <geleem@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> read a few pages on gnu site and you will believe gnu is only one who
> has written anything for linux, other than linus t.

Heh. If you came out of the gnu site with that impression, there's
something that needs to be fixed somewhere.

The GNU Project created software for the GNU Operating System. Linux,
a kernel, happens to work with the GNU Operating System, because Linus
et al designed it to.

AFAIK the GNU Project never wrote code for Linux, and I'm very
interested in finding out how you got that idea from the GNU web
site. It needs fixing.

Thanks,

--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
FSFLA Board Member ¡Sé Libre! => http://www.fsfla.org/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}

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Old 07-14-2008, 09:23 AM
Alexandre Oliva
 
Default Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?

On Jul 13, 2008, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> wrote:

> Alexandre Oliva <aoliva <at> redhat.com> writes:
>> With the current policies, more and more non-Free Software is being
>> welcomed into Fedora.

> You're intentionally omitting one detail: all that non-Free software
> isn't software which runs on the CPU, it's firmware which runs on
> peripherals.

I'm omitting it because it's irrelevant. It's software, and it's not
Free, therefore it's part of an unethical and immoral system of
controlling users rather than empowering them.

Why should it matter which of the many CPUs of a system the software
runs on?

> The thing is that most hardware these days has some form of embedded
> processor and is driven by firmware.

And there are a number of such devices for which the firmware is
Free. We need more of those.

> There's only one difference: the hardware which "does not need"
> firmware actually has that firmware on some ROM inside the device.

There are such devices, indeed. Some of them use actual ROM. These
are unfortunate, but the fact that you cannot change them is not
necessarily an unethical imposition from the vendor; it just so
happens that it's impossible to modify ROM. An ethical vendor might
still provide you with source code and instructions on how to replace
the ROM upon request, if at all possible.

Others use EPROM, such that you're not forced to load firmware just to
get the system to work. Like BIOSes, you often run into bugs, and
vendors will often refuse to fix them for you unless you have very
deep pockets, and if you can't fix them yourself, you're out of luck.
How's that good for you or anyone?

> But recently, more and more hardware manufacturers decided to save
> costs by removing that ROM and having the computer upload the
> firmware instead, which is why firmware is included with operating
> systems.

Right. So they save some, charge customers the same, transfer costs
to software distributors, and neither users nor software developers
get any of the benefits. What's in it for them, again?

Why should Free Software operating systems take the burden of
including, distributing, supporting, and updating these pieces of
software on behalf of the vendors themselves? Why shouldn't they just
direct people to the vendors instead, and keep the costs and the
negative feedback where they should have always remained?

I've long proposed something along the lines of Codeina, that educates
people about the problem of proprietary media formats, to educate
people about the problem of devices that require non-Free firmware.
Fedora could educate people about the problem while at the same time
educating people as to how they can work around the problem they have,
and why they should try to avoid the problem next time they go
shopping for computers. Making things "just work" just makes people
comfortable with the problem, *and* misleads a number of people into
believing it actually works. Instead, making it detect the problem
and explain to the user what's going on, why Fedora won't ship that
stuff, and why the vendor should have offered the user the firmware
the machine requires, in a way that respected the users' freedom, at
least some vendors might feel the pressure and start shipping their
firmware in ways that respect their users. And then Fedora (and
anyone) could include it and make users' lives freer and more
convenient.

> The real problem to solve is that there is almost NO Free firmware,
> not that distributions include non-Free firmware.

Exactly. It's not endorsing and hiding it that you'll educate people
to put pressure on vendors where it matters. And by actively
educating people, they won't be able to blame Fedora when it doesn't
"just work"; they'll rather realize that others have been fooling
them.

Of course, none of this is supposed to preclude the user from
installing non-Free Software if they decide to. Telling users what to
do or not to do goes against their own freedom. Just like "forcing"
them to have, install and redistribute this kind of software goes
against their own freedom.

There's no reason this stuff needs to be part of the operating system.
It's a matter of trading off freedom and education opportunity for
short-term convenience. And I really mean short-term: anyone who's
ever found themselves locked out of a desirable upgrade or switch
because of some non-Free driver or firmware understands at least part
of the long-term picture.

--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
FSFLA Board Member ¡Sé Libre! => http://www.fsfla.org/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}

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Old 07-14-2008, 10:47 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?

Antonio Olivares <olivares14031 <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> A Because Fedora includes Firmware and those guys don't.

Bullsh*t!

BLAG 70000 ships:
* the original Fedora 7 kernels as the default and kernel-libre only as an
option,
* the following firmwares: asterisk-firmware, atmel-firmware, ivtv-firmware,
iwl3945-firmware, iwl4965-firmware, iwlwifi-firmware (old version of
iwl3945-firmware), ql2100-firmware, ql2200-firmware, ql23xx-firmware and
ql2400-firmware, all with "License: Redistributable, no modification permitted"
* zd1211-firmware which claims to be GPLv2, but with no source available.

So the only difference between Fedora and BLAG in their current state is that
BLAG is 2 releases out of date, which also implies there are no security
updates from Fedora anymore for the software they ship, and I wouldn't rely on
BLAG for security updates if I were you. For example, there is no bind update
for the recent DNS security issue, nor any other updates since June 13. I
consider it completely irresponsible to recommend a distribution whose "current
release" has not received ANY security updates for a month!

Kevin Kofler

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Old 07-14-2008, 11:19 AM
Anders Karlsson
 
Default Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?

* Alexandre Oliva <aoliva@redhat.com> [20080714 11:24]:
[snip: the same f*cking discussion that has made the rounds
*COUNTLESS* of times already]

Okay, invocation of Goodwins Law to *KILL* this thread.

You are behaving like a little Nazi with your _repeated_ attempts to
shout everyone down with your drifting argument despite being rebuffed
again and again.

Can you take this drivel somewhere else please - it is not relevant to
Fedora lists. Go create a BLAG list somewhere and preach to that
choire.

Or - do what was suggested you do a Looooong time ago, take your
argument upstream and it'll filter down to Fedora eventually.

Thank you for your understanding.

--
Anders Karlsson <anders@trudheim.co.uk>
All-Round Linux Tinkerer & RHCE

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