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Old 09-14-2011, 11:50 AM
Rahul Sundaram
 
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On 09/14/2011 05:13 PM, Genes MailLists wrote
> I realize, but that was indeed part of the point of my reply - lets
> avoid making up things (with or without hyperbole) - and best we can,
> stick to facts and real issues.

You are ignoring the real issue. Since you don't seem to understand my
point yet but let me rephrase it. Any update has a risk. A major new
version of a init system is a substantial risk in an update. You
shouldn't push it as an update unless there is a substantial
justification for taking that risk. Since even a minor problem in a
init system can result in a system that you can't easily recover from,
the question always is not why not but why. The goal of the update
policy is to ask that question.

Rahul
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Old 09-14-2011, 12:16 PM
"Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson"
 
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On 09/14/2011 11:50 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 09/14/2011 05:13 PM, Genes MailLists wrote
>> I realize, but that was indeed part of the point of my reply - lets
>> avoid making up things (with or without hyperbole) - and best we can,
>> stick to facts and real issues.
> You are ignoring the real issue. Since you don't seem to understand my
> point yet but let me rephrase it. Any update has a risk. A major new
> version of a init system is a substantial risk in an update. You
> shouldn't push it as an update unless there is a substantial
> justification for taking that risk. Since even a minor problem in a
> init system can result in a system that you can't easily recover from,
> the question always is not why not but why. The goal of the update
> policy is to ask that question.

Users that require newer bits that we ship in GA can just rebuild the
relevant components from srpm in koji and ofcourse they get to keep the
broken bits by doing so.

And FYI to all those that gloriously want to upgrade and claim that it's
bug free or "they" ( all of what two people ) not encountered any issues
inetd-style socket activation is borked in .35 ( users need to downgrade
to .34 or add StandardOutput=socket if they cant wait until 36 goes out ).

JBG
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Old 09-14-2011, 12:35 PM
Reindl Harald
 
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Am 14.09.2011 14:16, schrieb "Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson":
> And FYI to all those that gloriously want to upgrade and claim that it's
> bug free or "they" ( all of what two people ) not encountered any issues
> inetd-style socket activation is borked in .35 ( users need to downgrade
> to .34 or add StandardOutput=socket if they cant wait until 36 goes out)

it is a hughe difference upgrade to some rawhide stuff or leave F15
until now 10 releases behind and the next 8 months with all the
missing features and problems as it was released!

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Old 09-14-2011, 03:46 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
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On 09/14/2011 03:37 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> "better position to judge" is relative

Not really. Noone is in a better position to judge the impact of
updates more than the upstream developers who also maintain the
component in Fedora.

> yes, updates may introduce new bugs / problems
>
> but nobody cared about all this before release systemd and some releases before

I think everyone has heard your opinion on this. There isn't a purpose
to repeating this so many times. It has nothing to do with updates at all

Rahul

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Old 09-14-2011, 04:41 PM
Adam Williamson
 
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On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 07:43 -0400, Genes MailLists wrote:

> Also, I'd be curious if LP felt the risk was high or negligible - since
> his thoughts should carry more weight on this topic.
> I assume he would not think 5% of users would have un-bootable systems.

No developer ever thinks their change is going to break anything for
anyone. It's the QA Law of What Could Possibly Go Wrong.
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Old 09-14-2011, 06:03 PM
Tom Callaway
 
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On 09/14/2011 12:41 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 07:43 -0400, Genes MailLists wrote:
>
>> Also, I'd be curious if LP felt the risk was high or negligible - since
>> his thoughts should carry more weight on this topic.
>> I assume he would not think 5% of users would have un-bootable systems.
>
> No developer ever thinks their change is going to break anything for
> anyone. It's the QA Law of What Could Possibly Go Wrong.

Also worth noting is that LP has been traveling almost non-stop for
about a week now. I spoke to him in person today, and he hasn't had a
chance to really look at this thread at all yet.

~tom

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Old 09-14-2011, 09:48 PM
"Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson"
 
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On 09/14/2011 12:35 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
> Am 14.09.2011 14:16, schrieb "Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson":
>> And FYI to all those that gloriously want to upgrade and claim that it's
>> bug free or "they" ( all of what two people ) not encountered any issues
>> inetd-style socket activation is borked in .35 ( users need to downgrade
>> to .34 or add StandardOutput=socket if they cant wait until 36 goes out)
> it is a hughe difference upgrade to some rawhide stuff or leave F15
> until now 10 releases behind and the next 8 months with all the
> missing features and problems as it was released!

Reindl now let me tell you about my day..

I had ping Toshio regarding FPC might want to update their socket
section to include xinetd ( since maintainers had shown concern both
regarding to packaging this and what was the general policy with regards
to converted xinetd socket/services ) which he of course brought up on
their next meeting which was today...

When I had time to look at irc from $dayjob I noticed that I had been
ping and what awaits me was this...

" abadger1999: He's on what could only be usefully termed a crusade.
It's actually somewhat damaging, but as long as nobody thinks that
they're mandated to pay attention to him, it shouldn't hurt anything in
the long run."

So apparently me converting xinetd and packages that provide xinetd
related files ( 33 packages including xinetd itself which produced 50+
unit files ) puts me on a somekind of crusade against xinetd and nobody
should be paying attention to my work ( that was a whole ( last )
weekend I spent working on and off it ).

Understandable Jason might have reach that conclusion if I had proposed
the removal of xinetd itself but I have never made such an proposal.

So Reindl by all means continue drag your rants into $next_releases it
does not get any worse than this for people that what to improve your
unfortunate experience and prevent others from experiencing it.

By the way for those of you that were thinking about joining the
migration process and lending a hand I strongly recommend against it
unless you got the stomach for it.

Talk about hostile work environment you ungrateful people.

Thanks for making my day ( yet again ).

JBG
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Old 09-14-2011, 10:32 PM
Kevin Fenzi
 
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On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:48:48 +0000
"Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson" <johannbg@gmail.com> wrote:

...snip...

> When I had time to look at irc from $dayjob I noticed that I had been
> ping and what awaits me was this...
>
> " abadger1999: He's on what could only be usefully termed a crusade.
> It's actually somewhat damaging, but as long as nobody thinks that
> they're mandated to pay attention to him, it shouldn't hurt anything
> in the long run."
...snip...

I'd like to note that Toshio (abadger1999 on IRC) did in fact not say
this. It was someone else answering them.

That said, I'd refer to the following from the excellent freenode
catalysts page ( http://freenode.net/catalysts.shtml ):

Open-minded. It's easy to make assumptions about other people's
motivations. When you decide someone is behaving maliciously, you've
made an assumption about their motivation which may be difficult to
disprove. Try to make your assumptions about other people's motivations
as positive as possible.

Careful. Everything you say will be interpreted by the users with whom
you interact. Consider how your remarks will be interpreted before you
make them. Make sure the message you convey is the one you intend.

Courteous. Even under time pressure, courtesy costs little and
impresses people a lot. It's not about whether working with the person
is easy or difficult; it's about setting the right tone.

kevin
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Old 09-14-2011, 10:57 PM
"Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson"
 
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On 09/14/2011 10:32 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> I'd like to note that Toshio (abadger1999 on IRC) did in fact not say
> this. It was someone else answering them.

Oh no he would never in fact Toshio has been one of the more helpful
person to me always and he is one of the person I look for inspiration
within the project so I'm truly sorry Toshio if this came out that way I
thought that was clear that it was Jason that said this so from the
bottom of my heart please accept my apologies.

So to prevent any misunderstanding it was Jason that said this. ( as the
meeting log show ).

JBG
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Old 09-14-2011, 11:11 PM
SÚrgio Basto
 
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On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 09:05 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
> and force
> a switch to systemd at the same time and then force the users to
> upgrade again to F16 as soon as possible to get systemd updated
> is simply the wrong way

I agree!

other piece of email :
> And FYI to all those that gloriously want to upgrade and claim that
it's
> bug free or "they" ( all of what two people ) not encountered any
issues
> inetd-style socket activation is borked in .35 ( users need to
downgrade
> to .34 or add StandardOutput=socket if they cant wait until 36 goes
out )."

So Fedora 15, should go to systemd .34 .
Put in updates-testing, do some testing and push to updates.

EOL of Fedora 15 is more than 6 months, and shouldn't have a beta
release of systemd, if systemd enter in a early stage in Fedora 15 ,
should be upgradeable ... ( I think). So what is the point in have a
early stage of a software, if we don't update with bug fixes and
features done.


Thanks,
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