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Old 06-11-2011, 12:12 PM
shawn wilson
 
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On Jun 11, 2011 5:27 AM, "Lisi" <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:

>

> On Saturday 11 June 2011 10:05:04 Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> > I've good luck, because I can skip a lot when watching at the monitor, I

> > guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff.

>

> I'm fascinated. *How do you read braille from a monitor??!

>

> My blind friends (even one who can read Braille at a phenomenal rate) all use

> text to speech software. *Though the point about difficulty scanning still

> holds good.

>

> That is not sarcasm incidentally. *I would genuinely like to know how you can

> use braille to read things on the Internet.

>


Yeah, there are braille tablets with mechanical 'dots'. However they cost some real money. Also as one who constantly brushes dust, skin, and hair off my macbook, I have no idea how you'd keep one of those clean.



So, people I've seen prefer speech. This too wasn't a cheap solution as windows software was $1k+ and a synthesizer was $200+. However, now most of the work is strictly software and there are free software solutions; emacs speak comes to mind (there's at least one other that I don't recall). There used to be issues with speech software on X. There's also an issue if a blind person needs access to the BIOS (though select computers used to output info through the serial port, and servers have ipmi). There also used to be an issue with remote apps on the windows side - I know Microsoft has pretty much solved this on their end but I don't know about citrix.



Now, whatever the price of this adaptive software, most (all?) states in the US have programs that pay for all necessary adaptive software / hardware and training. Despite the large amount of money spent here, there are serious issues with people who don't know hoe to write web pages. The other big issue is new cell phones that have few physical buttons (I have been told that the iPhone is better on this front than Android).



This is about 80% OT but you asked. I'm also sure that Google can get you more reliable info on this topic than I. Hopefully if you design software or web pages, you'll consider how you'd use it without eyes.
 
Old 06-11-2011, 01:16 PM
Lisi
 
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On Saturday 11 June 2011 13:12:25 shawn wilson wrote:
> On Jun 11, 2011 5:27 AM, "Lisi" <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday 11 June 2011 10:05:04 Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > > I've good luck, because I can skip a lot when watching at the monitor,
> > > I guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff.
> >
> > I'm fascinated. How do you read braille from a monitor??!
> >
> > My blind friends (even one who can read Braille at a phenomenal rate) all
>
> use
>
> > text to speech software. Though the point about difficulty scanning
> > still holds good.
> >
> > That is not sarcasm incidentally. I would genuinely like to know how you
>
> can
>
> > use braille to read things on the Internet.
>
> Yeah, there are braille tablets with mechanical 'dots'. However they cost
> some real money. Also as one who constantly brushes dust, skin, and hair
> off my macbook, I have no idea how you'd keep one of those clean.

This:
http://www.rnib.org.uk/shop/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?category=transcription_softwar e&productID=HT10601
was all I was able to find this side of the pond, and it claims only to be
able to translate word processor documents, not Internet pages. Have you a
reference?

I have also found this:
http://www.tabletedia.com/news/1113.html
but that refers to the future.

> This is about 80% OT but you asked. I'm also sure that Google can get you
> more reliable info on this topic than I. Hopefully if you design software
> or web pages, you'll consider how you'd use it without eyes.

We are a long way from web sites designed with blind people in mind. Most are
designed without consideration even for the partially sighted!

Lisi


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Old 06-11-2011, 01:30 PM
Lisi
 
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On Saturday 11 June 2011 12:30:03 Steven wrote:
> *I would genuinely like to know how you can
>
> > use braille to read things on the Internet.
>
> They can use special hardware for that, it 'translates' the written text
> to a line of braille on a physical device. Googling "braille hardware
> gave me this link on top:
> http://www.indiana.edu/~iuadapts/technology/hardware/braille/index.html

Thanks - I had seen Braille input devices and Braille production devices, but
never Braille output devices.

Lisi


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Old 06-11-2011, 02:22 PM
Stephen Powell
 
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On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 05:05:04 -0400 (EDT), Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-06-10 at 23:13 -0400, Stephen Powell wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 21:50:28 -0400 (EDT), "Morning Star" wrote:
>>>
>>> i want to join this mailing lists because i have a question about debian.
>>
>> See http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/ for instructions on how to subscribe.
>
> It's bad that the Linux community tends to educate people with tons of
> redundant words, when they don't have a choice not to read it.
>
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ IMO would be the better link and if
> somebody already has subscribed and a subscription mail came through the
> list, this isn't fatal.
>
> Dyslexia, braille and other reasons should be good enough to reduce the
> amount of words for basic information.
>
> A thread with redundant words is ok, because everybody is free not to
> read it.
>
> No rant , just 2 cents, since I'm a dyslexic and wonder about this
> Linux own issue. E.g. read a book to set up your boot loaders menu and
> now read a book about how to subscribe to a Debian mailing list.
>
> I've good luck, because I can skip a lot when watching at the monitor, I
> guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff.

I was answering the question he asked, not the question he didn't ask.
Is it possible to use the list without subscribing? Yes, it is.
But that's not what he asked. He specifically said he wanted to
"join the list". And I gave him a link to the instructions.

(OK, strictly speaking it was a statement, not a question. The question
was implied.)

--
.'`. Stephen Powell
: :' :
`. `'`
`-


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Old 06-11-2011, 02:37 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
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On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 14:16 +0100, Lisi wrote:
> On Saturday 11 June 2011 13:12:25 shawn wilson wrote:
> > On Jun 11, 2011 5:27 AM, "Lisi" <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Saturday 11 June 2011 10:05:04 Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > > > I've good luck, because I can skip a lot when watching at the monitor,
> > > > I guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff.
> > >
> > > I'm fascinated. How do you read braille from a monitor??!
> > >
> > > My blind friends (even one who can read Braille at a phenomenal rate) all
> >
> > use
> >
> > > text to speech software. Though the point about difficulty scanning
> > > still holds good.
> > >
> > > That is not sarcasm incidentally. I would genuinely like to know how you
> >
> > can
> >
> > > use braille to read things on the Internet.
> >
> > Yeah, there are braille tablets with mechanical 'dots'. However they cost
> > some real money. Also as one who constantly brushes dust, skin, and hair
> > off my macbook, I have no idea how you'd keep one of those clean.
>
> This:
> http://www.rnib.org.uk/shop/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?category=transcription_softwar e&productID=HT10601
> was all I was able to find this side of the pond, and it claims only to be
> able to translate word processor documents, not Internet pages. Have you a
> reference?

There's a daemon for Linux doing this. You can use braille even with, at
least older Debian installers. Here it is brltty
http://mielke.cc/brltty/ that's why I was thinking of w3m. Now I
understand what you was asking for .


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Old 06-11-2011, 02:46 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
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On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 10:22 -0400, Stephen Powell wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 05:05:04 -0400 (EDT), Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > On Fri, 2011-06-10 at 23:13 -0400, Stephen Powell wrote:
> >> On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 21:50:28 -0400 (EDT), "Morning Star" wrote:
> >>>
> >>> i want to join this mailing lists because i have a question about debian.
> >>
> >> See http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/ for instructions on how to subscribe.
> >
> > It's bad that the Linux community tends to educate people with tons of
> > redundant words, when they don't have a choice not to read it.
> >
> > http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ IMO would be the better link and if
> > somebody already has subscribed and a subscription mail came through the
> > list, this isn't fatal.
> >
> > Dyslexia, braille and other reasons should be good enough to reduce the
> > amount of words for basic information.
> >
> > A thread with redundant words is ok, because everybody is free not to
> > read it.
> >
> > No rant , just 2 cents, since I'm a dyslexic and wonder about this
> > Linux own issue. E.g. read a book to set up your boot loaders menu and
> > now read a book about how to subscribe to a Debian mailing list.
> >
> > I've good luck, because I can skip a lot when watching at the monitor, I
> > guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff.
>
> I was answering the question he asked, not the question he didn't ask.
> Is it possible to use the list without subscribing? Yes, it is.
> But that's not what he asked. He specifically said he wanted to
> "join the list". And I gave him a link to the instructions.
>
> (OK, strictly speaking it was a statement, not a question. The question
> was implied.)



IMO

Subscribe / Unsubscribe
Your email address:

doesn't need tons of text how to use it , so at least I would
recommend this link http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/

I guess with some hours trail and error it should be possible to
subscribe, even by using this complicated thingy .

2 Cents,

Ralf


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Old 06-11-2011, 04:54 PM
Scott Ferguson
 
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On 11/06/11 23:16, Lisi wrote:
> On Saturday 11 June 2011 13:12:25 shawn wilson wrote:
>> On Jun 11, 2011 5:27 AM, "Lisi" <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday 11 June 2011 10:05:04 Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>>>> I've good luck, because I can skip a lot when watching at the monitor,
>>>> I guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff.
>>>
>>> I'm fascinated. How do you read braille from a monitor??!
>>>
>>> My blind friends (even one who can read Braille at a phenomenal rate) all
>>
>> use
>>
>>> text to speech software. Though the point about difficulty scanning
>>> still holds good.
>>>
>>> That is not sarcasm incidentally. I would genuinely like to know how you
>>
>> can
>>
>>> use braille to read things on the Internet.
>>
>> Yeah, there are braille tablets with mechanical 'dots'. However they cost
>> some real money. Also as one who constantly brushes dust, skin, and hair
>> off my macbook, I have no idea how you'd keep one of those clean.

I've seen one made by Nokia that was wipeable - most of the haptic
devices are easy to clean.
NOTE: the haptic devices are very cool and allow you to feel images!

>
> This:
> http://www.rnib.org.uk/shop/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?category=transcription_softwar e&productID=HT10601
> was all I was able to find this side of the pond, and it claims only to be
> able to translate word processor documents, not Internet pages. Have you a
> reference?
>
> I have also found this:
> http://www.tabletedia.com/news/1113.html
> but that refers to the future.
>
>> This is about 80% OT but you asked. I'm also sure that Google can get you
>> more reliable info on this topic than I. Hopefully if you design software
>> or web pages, you'll consider how you'd use it without eyes.
>
> We are a long way from web sites designed with blind people in mind. Most are
> designed without consideration even for the partially sighted!

*cough* some of us do design websites the blind and visually handicapped
in mind....it's just not noticed by those with normal vision. (sigh) ;-p
All of my sites are built with the visually handicapped in mind - they
must be navigable and intelligible with Lynx, that overpriced p.i.t.a.
JAWS - and the decent screen readers, braille displays as well. Even
harder is allowing for colour vision impaired (but doable) and ensuring
those that are (merely) vision impaired can navigate and access the
information with screen magnifiers. That also means ensuring that it's
easy to "tab" though contents, skip menus - all that has to be possible
as both a full screen layout and on mobile devices.
Then we have make sure that all browsers can display it as both large
screen and mobile (ie6 included). Technically I'm bad because I don't
use image tags - my sightless site testers had the same complaint Ralf
had about un-necessary words - so I try and just ensure the name is
instructive eg. cow_picture.png except in the rare circumstance that a
site requires a detailed description of a graphic for the
non-graphically orientated.
With many government clients these things are mandated in the contract -
with corporate clients it's just sensible. Despite what many of the web
"designeers" I hear from will tell you - failing to support the visually
handicapped or those using IE6 means locking can mean losing business.
I don't usually plug my business - and I'm certainly not a rarity
amongst designers - I know many who do a much better job than I.
Feel free to ask for a link.

>
> Lisi
>
>

>From my point of view debian.org is very well designed. Kudo to the
designer/s.

Cheers

--
Tuttle? His name's Buttle.
There must be some mistake.
Mistake? [Chuckles]
We don't make mistakes. [Crash!]
Bloody typical. They've gone back
to metric without telling us.

Terry Gilliam's "Brazil"


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Old 06-11-2011, 05:42 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
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On Sun, 2011-06-12 at 02:54 +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> On 11/06/11 23:16, Lisi wrote:
> > On Saturday 11 June 2011 13:12:25 shawn wilson wrote:
> >> On Jun 11, 2011 5:27 AM, "Lisi" <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Saturday 11 June 2011 10:05:04 Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> >>>> I've good luck, because I can skip a lot when watching at the monitor,
> >>>> I guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff.
> >>>
> >>> I'm fascinated. How do you read braille from a monitor??!
> >>>
> >>> My blind friends (even one who can read Braille at a phenomenal rate) all
> >>
> >> use
> >>
> >>> text to speech software. Though the point about difficulty scanning
> >>> still holds good.
> >>>
> >>> That is not sarcasm incidentally. I would genuinely like to know how you
> >>
> >> can
> >>
> >>> use braille to read things on the Internet.
> >>
> >> Yeah, there are braille tablets with mechanical 'dots'. However they cost
> >> some real money. Also as one who constantly brushes dust, skin, and hair
> >> off my macbook, I have no idea how you'd keep one of those clean.
>
> I've seen one made by Nokia that was wipeable - most of the haptic
> devices are easy to clean.
> NOTE: the haptic devices are very cool and allow you to feel images!
>
> >
> > This:
> > http://www.rnib.org.uk/shop/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?category=transcription_softwar e&productID=HT10601
> > was all I was able to find this side of the pond, and it claims only to be
> > able to translate word processor documents, not Internet pages. Have you a
> > reference?
> >
> > I have also found this:
> > http://www.tabletedia.com/news/1113.html
> > but that refers to the future.
> >
> >> This is about 80% OT but you asked. I'm also sure that Google can get you
> >> more reliable info on this topic than I. Hopefully if you design software
> >> or web pages, you'll consider how you'd use it without eyes.
> >
> > We are a long way from web sites designed with blind people in mind. Most are
> > designed without consideration even for the partially sighted!
>
> *cough* some of us do design websites the blind and visually handicapped
> in mind....it's just not noticed by those with normal vision. (sigh) ;-p
> All of my sites are built with the visually handicapped in mind - they
> must be navigable and intelligible with Lynx, that overpriced p.i.t.a.
> JAWS - and the decent screen readers, braille displays as well. Even
> harder is allowing for colour vision impaired (but doable) and ensuring
> those that are (merely) vision impaired can navigate and access the
> information with screen magnifiers. That also means ensuring that it's
> easy to "tab" though contents, skip menus - all that has to be possible
> as both a full screen layout and on mobile devices.
> Then we have make sure that all browsers can display it as both large
> screen and mobile (ie6 included). Technically I'm bad because I don't
> use image tags - my sightless site testers had the same complaint Ralf
> had about un-necessary words - so I try and just ensure the name is
> instructive eg. cow_picture.png except in the rare circumstance that a
> site requires a detailed description of a graphic for the
> non-graphically orientated.
> With many government clients these things are mandated in the contract -
> with corporate clients it's just sensible. Despite what many of the web
> "designeers" I hear from will tell you - failing to support the visually
> handicapped or those using IE6 means locking can mean losing business.
> I don't usually plug my business - and I'm certainly not a rarity
> amongst designers - I know many who do a much better job than I.
> Feel free to ask for a link.

Sometimes the ignorance is funny. In my hometown there was a pharmacy
where people only could go in by stairs. You only needed to have a
sporting injury and couldn't go in. At least the target group should be
satisfied.

"With many government clients these things are mandated in the contract"
this should be taken for granted.

Cheers!

Ralf


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Old 06-11-2011, 11:10 PM
Lisi
 
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On Saturday 11 June 2011 17:54:35 Scott Ferguson wrote:
> *cough* some of us do design websites the blind and visually handicapped
> in mind....it's just not noticed by those with normal vision. (sigh) ;-p

Many don't bother. And just for the record I myself am partially sighted (our
awful euphemism!). If someone can't be bothered to make the site visible, I
can't be bothered to try and read it.

As you rightly say, it is a shame to throw all those potential customers out
with the rubbish. But I have got better things to do with my life than try
desperately to make out what that mid-grey writing on a pale grey background
is actually saying, or what that "pretty" graphic is successfully masking.

Those like you who try to make things accessible are much appreciated - anyhow
by me!

Lisi



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Old 06-11-2011, 11:15 PM
Lisi
 
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On Saturday 11 June 2011 18:42:28 Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Sometimes the ignorance is funny. In my hometown there was a pharmacy
> where people only could go in by stairs. You only needed to have a
> sporting injury and couldn't go in. At least the target group should be
> satisfied.

We used to have a car-park (thankfully it has been blown up) that had lifts
for those who, for whatever reason - pushchairs, wheelchairs etc. - could not
use the stairs. To get to the lifts you had to go either up or down some
stairs!

Lisi


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