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Old 05-17-2010, 06:27 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Feedback on the Linux Action Show review of Fedora 13

Hello Bryan and Chris,

As usual, here is my feedback on your review of Fedora 13 at
http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/?p=1976. While I understand that the
review was from a desktop end user perspective, Fedora's focus is
different and that might be useful to keep in mind. The target audience
for Fedora is described in our overview and here is a reference:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base

Having said that, let me go through the details and respond to some
specific points in the review.

* Btrfs is not supported in the Live images as noted in our release
notes. Our live images pre-formatted and compressed Ext4 ones and that
is the reason it is super fast to install. We trade it some flexibility
(no choice of packages or support for other filesystems) for speed
(typically the entire installation is just a couple of mins). You will
have to use the non-live images if you want to try out the experimental
support for Btrfs. I have made sure that the announcement of Fedora 13
points out this detail as well. Our current draft is at

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_announcement

There are lots of new exciting new features and I would love to see the
show cover more.

* Chris noted that our wiki page on PackageKit missing items and third
party repositories were user unfriendly and I thought it could use some
improvements as well.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageKit_Items_Not_Found#Missing_Codec

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Third_party_repositories

Hope you find it more friendlier now.

* Shotwell : While you are comparing F-Spot and Shotwell, I should
note that F-Spot has not been included by default in Fedora Live image
for several releases. Fedora desktop team had a discussion about
replacing Gthumb with Shotwell and I proposed that we install Shotwell
instead of F-Spot in the non-live image as well. It seems you have
doubts about the reasons why and instead of me explaining it to you, I
would note that all these discussions happen transparently and you can
read through it at

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/desktop/2010-March/005883.html

Shotwell is a really fast and awesome application and it didn't feel
like you folks had taken a good look at it. I highly recommend
importing some pics and playing with it more. As I indicated before in
my feedback on the last review, the reason why we have less apps is
because we opted to provide more comprehensive local support out of the
box. We considered doing a Live DVD image instead for this release but
decided against it during the development process. We will re-evaluate
that decision for the next release.

* Openoffice.org : Bryan mentioned that the Openoffice.org version is
outdated. I am not sure why he though so but that is incorrect. We
include the very latest stable release: 3.2.0

$ rpm -q openoffice.org-core
openoffice.org-core-3.2.0-12.21.fc13.i686

* GNOME PackageKit: We are working on a alternative frontend that is
more focused on application installation than the current interface.
You can follow progress at

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ApplicationInstaller

--

Thanks for the review and I hope to continue the discussions.

Rahul
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Old 05-17-2010, 07:36 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default Feedback on the Linux Action Show review of Fedora 13

Thanks for writing that response, Rahul, even and objective in tone.
One question I had though...

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 11:57:01PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> * GNOME PackageKit: We are working on a alternative frontend that is
> more focused on application installation than the current interface.
> You can follow progress at
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ApplicationInstaller

This page doesn't look to have been updated for almost two years. I'm
not sure anyone is actively working on this particular frontend,
although I do know that the Desktop SIG is ver interested in finding a
more intuitive way to expose applications and groups to users.

--
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Old 05-17-2010, 07:49 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Feedback on the Linux Action Show review of Fedora 13

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:06 AM, Paul W. Frields <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:



>

> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ApplicationInstaller



This page doesn't look to have been updated for almost two years. *I'm

not sure anyone is actively working on this particular frontend,

although I do know that the Desktop SIG is ver interested in finding a

more intuitive way to expose applications and groups to users.
Richard Hughes mentioned it in*
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-May/136208.html

"Now, what you're asking for in your email we are working on. It's called app-install, but needs lots of help from the Fedora infrastructure people to actually make it happen. I'm hoping we can get the infrastructure in place for F14."

Maybe you can talk to infrastructure and help move it along

Rahul
*
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Old 05-17-2010, 07:51 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Feedback on the Linux Action Show review of Fedora 13

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:06 AM, Paul W. Frields <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:



>

> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ApplicationInstaller



This page doesn't look to have been updated for almost two years. *I'm

not sure anyone is actively working on this particular frontend,

although I do know that the Desktop SIG is ver interested in finding a

more intuitive way to expose applications and groups to users.
Richard Hughes mentioned it in*
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-May/136208.html

"Now, what you're asking for in your email we are working on. It's called app-install, but needs lots of help from the Fedora infrastructure people to actually make it happen. I'm hoping we can get the infrastructure in place for F14."

Maybe you can talk to infrastructure and help move it along

Rahul
*
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Old 05-17-2010, 07:51 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Feedback on the Linux Action Show review of Fedora 13

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:06 AM, Paul W. Frields <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:



>

> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ApplicationInstaller



This page doesn't look to have been updated for almost two years. *I'm

not sure anyone is actively working on this particular frontend,

although I do know that the Desktop SIG is ver interested in finding a

more intuitive way to expose applications and groups to users.
Richard Hughes mentioned it in*
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-May/136208.html

"Now, what you're asking for in your email we are working on. It's called app-install, but needs lots of help from the Fedora infrastructure people to actually make it happen. I'm hoping we can get the infrastructure in place for F14."

Maybe you can talk to infrastructure and help move it along

Rahul
*
--
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Old 05-17-2010, 07:51 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Feedback on the Linux Action Show review of Fedora 13

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:06 AM, Paul W. Frields <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:



>

> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ApplicationInstaller



This page doesn't look to have been updated for almost two years. *I'm

not sure anyone is actively working on this particular frontend,

although I do know that the Desktop SIG is ver interested in finding a

more intuitive way to expose applications and groups to users.
Richard Hughes mentioned it in*
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-May/136208.html

"Now, what you're asking for in your email we are working on. It's called app-install, but needs lots of help from the Fedora infrastructure people to actually make it happen. I'm hoping we can get the infrastructure in place for F14."

Maybe you can talk to infrastructure and help move it along

Rahul
*
--
marketing mailing list
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Old 05-19-2010, 01:21 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Feedback on the Linux Action Show review of Fedora 13

On 05/19/2010 11:39 AM, Chris wrote:
>
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base
>
>
> I think it's fantastic Fedora has that page, it's a great example of
> the projects transparency. The main concern I tried to convey in the
> review, is I'm concerned Fedora has a unique kind of new Linux user
> finding them. This user, who just for this example, is someone who's
> maybe a IT guy who just got tasked with a bunch of RHEL servers and
> wants to jump into Desktop Linux to learn. He's going to search for
> Red Hat's desktop Linux, and eventually will come to find the Fedora
> project. His first impressions of Fedora will be his impressions of
> desktop Linux. So whatever Fedora gets right, or wrong, has a very
> specific type of important new eye looking at it - despite what the
> project's personal user base target might be.

As you are already aware, Red Hat does invest very heavily on desktop
technologies and has a Red Hat Desktop product. While Red Hat as a
sponsor of the Fedora has significant influence, Fedora a project can
and does have different goals from Red Hat and with the help of
governing communities like the Fedora Board has set its own direction.
We are transparent about our goals and focus which is different from
being a end user desktop product. We are focussed on free and open
source software. Aside from that, the legal restrictions around being a
US based entity involves having to deal with the unfortunate situation
of software patents. Taking all this into consideration, I think it
would be better to hold us up against what we focus on and evaluate how
well we do. Not every distribution has the same focus and goals and we
cannot fit a square peg into a round hole. I personally use Fedora as
my desktop for the last several but us technical users of course have
different expectations from a typical consumer. One of the things, that
came up in your show and something that the desktop team has discussed
is including some content by default on the desktop so it is even more
obvious what we do and do not do within Fedora.

> Totally makes sense, and I think we said as much on the show about it
> being a Live CD. Our focus on Btrfs is because that's what
> the audience is very excited about, that's what desktop Linux really
> care about. It's what Fedora 13 is going to be known for. At least
> until the version of Fedora that ships with it as the default. :-)

Btrfs being the default is some ways away. Red Hat has a full time
developer working on stabilizing the filesystem and we will get there
when it is ready. Meanwhile, we have been working on several features
related to Btrfs. I recommend downloading a non-live image, passing
btrfs as a option during installation and try it out. Take a look at
the yum plugin we have included as well. More details at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Btrfs_in_Fedora_13. I look forward to a
review on that.

>
> I do, and it looks good. I still find telling your users to go Google
> their problem is a bit tacky. It seems to come from a inherent bias
> against even wanting to support or enable the user to acquire the
> codecs on their own terms. I find it so odd when a brilliant community
> all about openness, self starting, and sharing acts this way. In my
> view, your making a platform to enable them to create and enjoy
> content on their computer as part of a normal function of a desktop
> system.
>
> I'm not even saying you must do more, I think a link to the FAQ, and
> the third party repos (sans that warning you axed) is sufficient. I
> think you -could- do more if you really wanted to, ala give CodecBuddy
> some love and better integration with media apps, etc etc.

I will have to ask Linux Action Show to assume good will on our part.
We of course want to help users and replaced Codec Buddy with a
distribution independent PackageKit codec plugin that uses Gstreamer to
find and enable codecs. If you enable a repo with additional codecs,
PackageKit will find it with the right integration in place but enabling
additional repos is NOT a technical problem. It is a legal issue. Red
Hat being a successful and profitable US entity is subject to certain
restrictions and higher risks that other distributions might not have.
As I already explained in the software patents page, we simply cannot
link to third party codecs and provide specific details. Our legal team
tells us that we might face contributory infringement charges and just
cannot take that risk. I am not a lawyer and cannot talk on behalf of
Red Hat but you would note that this risk is not theoretical anymore.
Red Hat only a couple of weeks back won a patent case filed against it
after years of fighting through court. If we can do anything more, we
certainly will. Now that I have explained the limitations we have, I
hope you read the page completely and let us know if you have any
suggestions on what we can do better.

> That's really cool, I'd love to cover that on LAS, I'll starting
> following that asap. I noticed the mock ups and demos were down, I'd
> love to have a chance to see those.

The project was dormant for quite sometime and it has picked up some
interest recently. The basic idea is that package installation is
different from application installation and we need to provide different
interfaces to cover different use cases. PackageKit currently has a
pretty good interface for managing packages but not so much for handling
applications and Richard Hughes from Red Hat, developer of PackageKit is
working on a different UI for that. One big benefit from our work on
this is that whatever we do on top of PackageKit will remain
distribution independent and can be easily adopted by other
distributions. That's one of the things we place a high value on.

> Thank you, if it's ok with you, will cover your points on the next
> episode.

Absolutely. If you have questions or concerns before the next show and
need some answers, do feel free to get in touch with me or press AT
fedoraproject.org anytime.

Rahul
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