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Old 05-12-2010, 11:52 AM
Nelson Marques
 
Default https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt

As mentioned before, the Portuguese displayed on that web page is not
correct. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt

I've prepared a small version in fluent Portuguese pt_PT available at:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt_alternative

in which I've tried to follow the model made by a spanish contributor
on: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Es


I've runned the page through the trans-pt list. If we have approval from
translation list that it complies with normalized Portuguese, can I
replace it and delete the alternative?

This brings up another question. We have a few more pages to enter
onishe the wiki in Portuguese, being one of them the trans-pt team page.

Where can we start differentiation on documentation on the wiki ? Could
we establish something like: http://fedoraproject.org/pt/ as the root
for the content entered in Portuguese by Portuguese contributors? Lets
imagine:

http://fedoraproject.org/pt/trans-pt-team
http://fedoraproject.org/pt/something

?

What are the guidelines for this? I apologize if this is not from the
nature of this list, but considering we Marketing support the the
efforts to grow our user base, this seems to be a very valid question
for this list as it would for sure qualify as strategical marketing.

Looking forward for instructions.

nelson.


--
Nelson Marques
Evil Clown (http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/evilclown.htm)

--
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:23 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 12:52:59PM +0100, Nelson Marques wrote:
>
> As mentioned before, the Portuguese displayed on that web page is not
> correct. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt
>
> I've prepared a small version in fluent Portuguese pt_PT available at:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt_alternative
>
> in which I've tried to follow the model made by a spanish contributor
> on: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Es
>
>
> I've runned the page through the trans-pt list. If we have approval from
> translation list that it complies with normalized Portuguese, can I
> replace it and delete the alternative?
>
> This brings up another question. We have a few more pages to enter
> onishe the wiki in Portuguese, being one of them the trans-pt team page.
>
> Where can we start differentiation on documentation on the wiki ? Could
> we establish something like: http://fedoraproject.org/pt/ as the root
> for the content entered in Portuguese by Portuguese contributors? Lets
> imagine:
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/pt/trans-pt-team
> http://fedoraproject.org/pt/something
>
> ?

The wiki is under /wiki/, these URLs are for the main website only,
which already has both pt/ and pt_BR/ variants from what I can see.

http://fedoraproject.org/pt/
http://fedoraproject.org/pt_BR/

> What are the guidelines for this? I apologize if this is not from the
> nature of this list, but considering we Marketing support the the
> efforts to grow our user base, this seems to be a very valid question
> for this list as it would for sure qualify as strategical marketing.
>
> Looking forward for instructions.

I would prefer to see this decision made by consensus of the pt_PT and
pt_BR translation teams. One way I think we could solve it easily:

* Put all content for Portuguese under pt_PT/. The main page on the wiki
would be: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt_PT/

* On that page, have a note at the top that indicates (in pt_BR): "If
you're looking for pt_BR, refer to
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt_BR" and make sure that page exists.

* Similarly, on the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt_BR page, indicate
(in pt_PT): "If you're looking fro pt_PT, refer to
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt_PT".

* If needed, have a http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt page that points
to both.

--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com
--
marketing mailing list
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
 
Old 05-12-2010, 01:03 PM
Nelson Marques
 
Default https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt

On Wed, 2010-05-12 at 08:23 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 12:52:59PM +0100, Nelson Marques wrote:
> >
> > As mentioned before, the Portuguese displayed on that web page is not
> > correct. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt
> >
> > I've prepared a small version in fluent Portuguese pt_PT available at:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt_alternative
> >
> > in which I've tried to follow the model made by a spanish contributor
> > on: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Es
> >
> >
> > I've runned the page through the trans-pt list. If we have approval from
> > translation list that it complies with normalized Portuguese, can I
> > replace it and delete the alternative?
> >
> > This brings up another question. We have a few more pages to enter
> > onishe the wiki in Portuguese, being one of them the trans-pt team page.
> >
> > Where can we start differentiation on documentation on the wiki ? Could
> > we establish something like: http://fedoraproject.org/pt/ as the root
> > for the content entered in Portuguese by Portuguese contributors? Lets
> > imagine:
> >
> > http://fedoraproject.org/pt/trans-pt-team
> > http://fedoraproject.org/pt/something
> >
> > ?
>
> The wiki is under /wiki/, these URLs are for the main website only,
> which already has both pt/ and pt_BR/ variants from what I can see.
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/pt/
> http://fedoraproject.org/pt_BR/

You are correct, I miss /wiki/ after the tld. If you look at the links
above, the one I translated, they appeared on the correct, my bad on
this one.

>
> > What are the guidelines for this? I apologize if this is not from the
> > nature of this list, but considering we Marketing support the the
> > efforts to grow our user base, this seems to be a very valid question
> > for this list as it would for sure qualify as strategical marketing.
> >
> > Looking forward for instructions.
>
> I would prefer to see this decision made by consensus of the pt_PT and
> pt_BR translation teams. One way I think we could solve it easily:
>
> * Put all content for Portuguese under pt_PT/. The main page on the wiki
> would be: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt_PT/
>
> * On that page, have a note at the top that indicates (in pt_BR): "If
> you're looking for pt_BR, refer to
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt_BR" and make sure that page exists.
>
> * Similarly, on the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt_BR page, indicate
> (in pt_PT): "If you're looking fro pt_PT, refer to
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt_PT".
>
> * If needed, have a http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt page that points
> to both.

Paul,

I would just like to point one thing PT is used internationally for
Portugal in all organizations worldwide, including the UN. IANA has also
assinged .pt to Portugal under the RFC 1561 if I am not mistaken.
For Portuguese audiences it would be easier to find it on /PT as I would
assume it would be the easier for Brazilian audiences to find theirs
in /BR. And makes no sense to me share /PT between pt_PT and PT_BR. So
in the future we have to add at least 7/8 more countries.

This is my personal opinion. Whatever you guys decide, it's cool by me,
I'm staying out of that one.

nelson

> --
> Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
> gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
> http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
> Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com

--
Nelson Marques
Evil Clown (http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/evilclown.htm)

--
marketing mailing list
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
 
Old 05-12-2010, 01:40 PM
Robyn Bergeron
 
Default https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:03 AM, Nelson Marques <07721@ipam.pt> wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-05-12 at 08:23 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>> On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 12:52:59PM +0100, Nelson Marques wrote:
>> >
>> > As mentioned before, the Portuguese displayed on that web page is not
>> > correct. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt
>> >
>> > I've prepared a small version in fluent Portuguese pt_PT available at:
>> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt_alternative
>> >
>> > in which I've tried to follow the model made by a spanish contributor
>> > on: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Es
>> >
>> >
>> > I've runned the page through the trans-pt list. If we have approval from
>> > translation list that it complies with normalized Portuguese, can I
>> > replace it and delete the alternative?
>> >
>> > This brings up another question. We have a few more pages to enter
>> > onishe the wiki in Portuguese, being one of them the trans-pt team page.
>> >
>> > Where can we start differentiation on documentation on the wiki ? Could
>> > we establish something like: http://fedoraproject.org/pt/ as the root
>> > for the content entered in Portuguese by Portuguese contributors? Lets
>> > imagine:
>> >
>> > http://fedoraproject.org/pt/trans-pt-team
>> > http://fedoraproject.org/pt/something
>> >
>> > ?
>>
>> The wiki is under /wiki/, these URLs are for the main website only,
>> which already has both pt/ and pt_BR/ variants from what I can see.
>>
>> http://fedoraproject.org/pt/
>> http://fedoraproject.org/pt_BR/
>
> You are correct, I miss /wiki/ after the tld. If you look at the links
> above, the one I translated, they appeared on the correct, my bad on
> this one.
>
>>
>> > What are the guidelines for this? I apologize if this is not from the
>> > nature of this list, but considering we Marketing support the the
>> > efforts to grow our user base, this seems to be a very valid question
>> > for this list as it would for sure qualify as strategical marketing.
>> >
>> > Looking forward for instructions.
>>
>> I would prefer to see this decision made by consensus of the pt_PT and
>> pt_BR translation teams. *One way I think we could solve it easily:
>>
>> * Put all content for Portuguese under pt_PT/. *The main page on the wiki
>> * would be: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt_PT/
>>
>> * On that page, have a note at the top that indicates (in pt_BR): "If
>> * you're looking for pt_BR, refer to
>> * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt_BR" and make sure that page exists.
>>
>> * Similarly, on the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt_BR page, indicate
>> * (in pt_PT): "If you're looking fro pt_PT, refer to
>> * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt_PT".
>>
>> * If needed, have a http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt page that points
>> * to both.
>
> Paul,
>
> I would just like to point one thing PT is used internationally for
> Portugal in all organizations worldwide, including the UN. IANA has also
> assinged .pt to Portugal under the RFC 1561 if I am not mistaken.
> For Portuguese audiences it would be easier to find it on /PT as I would
> assume it would be the easier for Brazilian audiences to find theirs
> in /BR. And makes no sense to me share /PT between pt_PT and PT_BR. So
> in the future we have to add at least 7/8 more countries.
>
> This is my personal opinion. Whatever you guys decide, it's cool by me,
> I'm staying out of that one.

Well - we're not all experts here in Marketing on the different ways
to make that call. While I'm happy to start working towards the goal
of having a more solidified workflow as far as translating marketing
deliverables goes, the decision on the pt_PT / PT_BR naming
conventions really needs to be in the hands of the translations team,
since the decision on naming conventions for translations reaches
other groups who also have translated versions of their deliverables
(docs, websites, just to name a few) - and we really need to ensure
that consistency flows throughout the project, no matter what decision
is made.

At the bare minimum, I think this conversation generally needs to be
had on the l10n list. We're (well, at least, I'm) not equipped to be
making decisions regarding translation workflow, naming conventions,
etc. - and most of the people who are, and should be involved in those
decisions, are not on the marketing mailing list. So I'd suggest
taking what has been said here, as Paul recommended - to both the
trans-pt and general l10 lists - and seeing what can be determined as
a plan to go forward.

-Robyn


>
> nelson
>
>> --
>> Paul W. Frields * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *http://paul.frields.org/
>> * gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 *5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
>> * http://redhat.com/ * - *- *- *- * http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
>> * * * * * Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com
>
> --
> Nelson Marques
> Evil Clown (http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/evilclown.htm)
>
> --
> marketing mailing list
> marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
>
--
marketing mailing list
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
 
Old 05-12-2010, 02:19 PM
Filipe Rosset
 
Default https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt

On 05/12/2010 09:23 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>
> * If needed, have a http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt page that points
> to both.
>

Agreed!
This is the best solution, pt_PT for Portugal and pt_BR for Brazil.
Please apply this Paul.
Best regards,

--
Filipe Rosset
Fedora Project
rosset.filipe@gmail.com
filiperosset@fedoraproject.org
Rio Grande do Sul - Brazil

"First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you.
Then you win." Mahatma Gandhi
--
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marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
 
Old 05-12-2010, 02:30 PM
Susan Lauber
 
Default https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Filipe Rosset <rosset.filipe@gmail.com> wrote:

On 05/12/2010 09:23 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:

>

> * If needed, have a http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt page that points

> * *to both.

>



Nelson,

You may also want to talk to the wiki team (which overlaps with the
docs team) about the status of internationalization in general for the
wiki.*



Maybe revive the trac ticket that was ment to start the research way back when.

https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-wiki/ticket/1



-Susan
*
--
Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS)
Lauber System Solutions, Inc.
http://www.laubersolutions.com
gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE *4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974


--
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Old 05-12-2010, 02:45 PM
Nelson Marques
 
Default https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt

Correct me if I'm wrong:

http://fedoraproject.org/pt/ > Selected entry of Portugal localization.
http://fedoraproject.org/pt/get-fedora > once more, clearly for
Portugal.
http://fedoraproject.org/pt/join-fedora > once more.
http://fedoraproject.org/pt/get-help > once more...


And now, we change everything on fp.o/wiki/$something because this or
that.

Sure. Will be taken to the l10n lists.




On Wed, 2010-05-12 at 11:19 -0300, Filipe Rosset wrote:
> On 05/12/2010 09:23 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> >
> > * If needed, have a http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt page that points
> > to both.
> >
>
> Agreed!
> This is the best solution, pt_PT for Portugal and pt_BR for Brazil.
> Please apply this Paul.
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Filipe Rosset
> Fedora Project
> rosset.filipe@gmail.com
> filiperosset@fedoraproject.org
> Rio Grande do Sul - Brazil
>
> "First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you.
> Then you win." Mahatma Gandhi

--
Nelson Marques
Evil Clown (http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/evilclown.htm)

--
marketing mailing list
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
 
Old 05-12-2010, 03:01 PM
Nelson Marques
 
Default https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt

Susan,

Many thanks for highlighting this. The problem is that fp.o/pt/ is
already being used for targeting Portuguese European Audiences. So will
be coherent?

Then another problem rises, IANA has defined that .br is brazil and .pt
is Portugal (outside of the scope of l10n). Everyday using numbers
previously launched on another discussion, at least 190+10 or 250+50
million users associate by instinct .pt to portugal and .br to brazil.
So the main goal of the wiki is to provide easy access to information...
So people who might be interested on us are probably already using a
coming rule that is followed by many nations. I will point you two
examples:

I provide a publication made by the CIA based on actual facts and
worldwide conventions accepted by all the civilized world. The
information there can be verified and sustained, which doesn't happen
many times with wiki pages.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/po.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/br.html

Check the part where it says: "Internet Country Code" under
Communications. We deliever information through the internet, following
those rules that were are some point mandated by IANA
(http://www.iana.org/) not to mention the political implications in
which PT and BR expressions are used daily.

Are we going to deliever our message to our users at some point using
the wrong recipient? Based on what?

Honestly I'm out of this mess because I really don't want to see the
results. As long as I'm pointed in the right way and someone says
clearly where they want the information. The problems that might arise
later will not be of my concern. So far I believed I've provided enough
information for what I believe to the correct solution. Not based on
personal pride, not based on foolish nationalism, not based on active
contributions! Instead based on common sense and according to several
conventions made worldwide at very different levels, from internet to
political.

I'm wondering how far people will go in redefining "freedom", to me it
still looks like despotism in some particular cases.

I rest my case, I have to had to this discussion anymore. I stopped
caring about this issue. Since 2008 that some try to do something for
Portugal. You want the results! Check the wiki and edits and who made
them. Check the Portuguese community evolution lines.

Thanks for point very good information, but this is no longer my fight,
neither it is in my hands anymore.

nelson.


On Wed, 2010-05-12 at 10:30 -0400, Susan Lauber wrote:
> On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Filipe Rosset
> <rosset.filipe@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 05/12/2010 09:23 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> >
> > * If needed, have a http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt page
> that points
> > to both.
> >
>
>
>
> Nelson,
> You may also want to talk to the wiki team (which overlaps with the
> docs team) about the status of internationalization in general for the
> wiki.
>
> Maybe revive the trac ticket that was ment to start the research way
> back when.
> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-wiki/ticket/1
>
> -Susan
>
>
> --
> Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS)
> Lauber System Solutions, Inc.
> http://www.laubersolutions.com
> gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE 4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974
> --
> marketing mailing list
> marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing

--
Nelson Marques
Evil Clown (http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/evilclown.htm)

--
marketing mailing list
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
 
Old 05-12-2010, 07:35 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 04:01:13PM +0100, Nelson Marques wrote:
> Susan,
>
> Many thanks for highlighting this. The problem is that fp.o/pt/ is
> already being used for targeting Portuguese European Audiences. So will
> be coherent?

Good point here -- I see that there are already a number of wiki pages
also that are Brazilian Portuguese and use pt_BR in their title. We
do want consistency.

[...substantial background info...]
> Honestly I'm out of this mess because I really don't want to see the
> results. As long as I'm pointed in the right way and someone says
> clearly where they want the information. The problems that might arise
> later will not be of my concern. So far I believed I've provided enough
> information for what I believe to the correct solution. Not based on
> personal pride, not based on foolish nationalism, not based on active
> contributions! Instead based on common sense and according to several
> conventions made worldwide at very different levels, from internet to
> political.
>
> I'm wondering how far people will go in redefining "freedom", to me it
> still looks like despotism in some particular cases.
>
> I rest my case, I have to had to this discussion anymore. I stopped
> caring about this issue. Since 2008 that some try to do something for
> Portugal. You want the results! Check the wiki and edits and who made
> them. Check the Portuguese community evolution lines.
>
> Thanks for point very good information, but this is no longer my fight,
> neither it is in my hands anymore.

That's where you're wrong Nelson -- it's in all of our hands. If we
can have constructive discussions that refrain from casting aspersions
at others, we can easily arrive at a solution that works for everyone.

If our current website uses a pt/pt_BR approach, we can easily
standardize on that. The right way to approach that standardization
is simple. We can point to the website as an established standard,
and I think everyone can agree we don't want to confuse people between
one fedoraproject.org site and another.

If the approach is to quote lots of independent studies and government
organizations, resulting in email that's far longer than it needs to
be, it's more likely to fail.

--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com
--
marketing mailing list
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
 

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