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Old 05-01-2010, 03:10 PM
Mario Torre
 
Default Fedora Project em Português

Il giorno sab, 01/05/2010 alle 17.01 +0200, wonderer ha scritto:
> Hy,
>
> Am 01.05.2010 16:51, schrieb Nelson Marques:
> > people,
> >
> > with all respect, I'm bleeding from my eyes after seeing this:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt
> >
> > Do I have permission to edit this page and convert this to Standard
> > Portuguese (pt_PT)?
> >
> I would suggest you should talk to the translation and/or infrastructure
> people.Thats not so much a marketing issue.
> But besides that ... its a wiki, so everybody can change things here.

Correct,

I think this is Brasilian Portugues, isn't it?

Perhaps it makes sense to unify it and having a single PT page, or move
it to be BR (or renaming in pt_BR and create pt_PT).

I know this is not a trivial choice, but think about that, if this is
correct Brasilian Portugues, and you change to be Portugues Portugues,
then Brasilians' hearts will bleed as well

Cheers,
Mario
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Old 05-01-2010, 03:17 PM
Nelson Marques
 
Default Fedora Project em Português

On Sat, 2010-05-01 at 17:01 +0200, wonderer wrote:
> I would suggest you should talk to the translation and/or
> infrastructure
> people.Thats not so much a marketing issue.
> But besides that ... its a wiki, so everybody can change things here.

I understand, that's why I didnt went edit it anyway, but my concern is
probably around strengthening in numbers and quality the Portuguese
community and not scare them away.

I'm pretty sure that Portuguese Fedora users would be happier with the
standard International English or even Spanish that with the contents of
that page.

I will try to contact the l10n team for PT, already subscribed their
lists and propose something we can do together and probably organize
something like a FAD but in Portugal with our translators and check the
real status on PT. I trully want to do something for this people and for
ourselfs.

--
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Old 05-01-2010, 03:48 PM
Nelson Marques
 
Default Fedora Project em Português

On Sat, 2010-05-01 at 17:10 +0200, Mario Torre wrote:
> Correct,
>
> I think this is Brasilian Portugues, isn't it?

Objective isn't flaming. I don't know if it is pt_BR or anything else,
but I know Portuguese it isn't. Explanation goes to Mario in Portuguese
for Mario only, because I am not sure if I can articulate this properly
in English:

Eu queria só deixar uma coisa clara, nao é por estar em pt_BR, mas há
frases que simplesmente fazem qualquer sentido, por exemplo:

"Reporte bugs e cobre melhorias"

A parte do "reporte bugs", isso passa, como uma grande parte do texto, o
leitor certamente percebe a mensagem, o problema vem logo a seguir
"cobre melhorias". Cobre como substantivo é um metal (Cu), e enquanto
forma verbal do verbo "cobrar", que significa taxar, não faz qualquer
sentido... E deixa o leitor sem qualquer noção do que está para ali
escrito, acabando por destruir o contexto da frase inteira.

Sao estes pequenos pormenores que deveriam ser corrigidos. Não e
propriamente o problema de ser pt_br. Daí eu ter dito noutro email que
possivelmente seria melhor solução os apontadores para pt_pt estarem
para os textos originais ingleses ou em espanhol, onde isto já nao
acontece. Eventualmente todos os Portugueses falam Espanhol e a maior
parte dos utilizadores de linux e entusiastas também teem formaçao desde
os 6 anos em Ingles. Aos meus olhos é uma soluçao melhor se
eventualmente nao se arranjar uma alternativa correcta em Portugues
Europeu. A culpa também é dos Portugueses por nao se entregarem ao
trabalho e traduzirem isto em condições, ou nao se interessarem.

De qualquer forma acho louvavel que alguem tenha tido a iniciativa e
posto a pagina online, apesar de tudo.


>
> Perhaps it makes sense to unify it and having a single PT page, or
> move
> it to be BR (or renaming in pt_BR and create pt_PT).

At the moment, no need to take action. But since the links there are to:

projectofedora.org (pt_PT) and not to projetofedora.org (pt_BR), I'm
assuming it's goal was to reach Portuguese (European) speakers. For
both, will always generate problems, and from the marketing point of
view it can be catastrophic.

Example: Citroen Picasso in Brazil ?
Chevy Nova in Spain ?
Mazda MR2 in France ?

People need to be careful and it's nicer to have a disclaimer stating:
we dont offer Portuguese (european) because we don't have pt_PT
translators, so the information is available in: en_EN, pt_BR, ES.

For example, would look far more professional and sensitive to users
that something unified which would bring problems to pt_PT and pt_BR, so
basically no one would be happy.

>
> I know this is not a trivial choice, but think about that, if this is
> correct Brasilian Portugues, and you change to be Portugues Portugues,
> then Brasilians' hearts will bleed as well

They shouldn't bleed because:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt says the following:

"Visite o site do Projecto Fedora Portugal para aprender mais sobre o
Fedora ou fazer download dele. O wiki do Projecto Fedora Portugal" which
translates into something like:

Visit the site from Fedora Project Portugal to learn more about Fedora
or download it. The wiki from Project Fedora Portugal..."

I think the message on the webpage is pretty clear. Why would Brazilians
get bleeding hearts if the page for Portuguese (European) is in correct
Portuguese (European) ?


>
>
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:34 PM
"Neville A. Cross"
 
Default Fedora Project em Português

2010/5/1 Nelson Marques <07721@ipam.pt>:
> On Sat, 2010-05-01 at 17:10 +0200, Mario Torre wrote:
>> Correct,
>>
>> I think this is Brasilian Portugues, isn't it?
>
> Objective isn't flaming. I don't know if it is pt_BR or anything else,
> but I know Portuguese it isn't. Explanation goes to Mario in Portuguese
> for Mario only, because I am not sure if I can articulate this properly
> in English:
>
> Eu queria só deixar uma coisa clara, nao é por estar em pt_BR, mas há
> frases que simplesmente fazem qualquer sentido, por exemplo:
>
> "Reporte bugs e cobre melhorias"
>
> A parte do "reporte bugs", isso passa, como uma grande parte do texto, o
> leitor certamente percebe a mensagem, o problema vem logo a seguir
> "cobre melhorias". Cobre como substantivo é um metal (Cu), e enquanto
> forma verbal do verbo "cobrar", que significa taxar, não faz qualquer
> sentido... E deixa o leitor sem qualquer noção do que está para ali
> escrito, acabando por destruir o contexto da frase inteira.
>
<snip>

I have to agree with Nelson, the page it does not flows smooth when
you are reading it. I am not very good with Portuguese in general,
less with differences across the Atlantic. The wiki page is broken
enough for me to notice. Looks like a machine translation without a
human review.

If this is going to fire a flame war, then have it pt_pt and pt_br. I
may said that having some tasks that make PT community identify and
join will be good. This will allow PT users to see that the can engage
and localize Fedora as much as they like. They can take ownership.
What I may suggest will be important is to agree with the wiki masters
how to integrate the new pages, so nothing is broken in the process
and the pages are easily to find. The most obvious suggestion will be
to create a category and use it extensively.

Best regards







--
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https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
Linux User # 473217

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:30 PM
Nelson Marques
 
Default Fedora Project em Português

Neville,

I've launched some alerts to the community, tried to subscribe the
trans-pt mailling list and contacted the people responsible on the L10N
to get in contact with me.

I'm not going to do anything because I don't want to go stepping on
people on a personal crusade. This is not the case.

But I'm getting in contact with them, also to help on this field,
translations are far less creative, though require more attention. Once
I establish contact with them, I will propose to ignite the
http://projectofedora.org which should localized for PT_PT and try to
motivate the people to help.

I've had feedback of at least one Portuguese Ambassador that was demoted
and I did failed to get some replies from his mentor, I really don't
like how Portuguese Ambassadors are assigned with non-EMEA mentors. This
is a failure in my personal opinion. To be an Ambassador it's required
communication skills, and this kinda sorts out the "language" barrier
from any native to english (in my opinion).

So, if we really really need Ambassadors to run a localized Fedora
Project in pt_PT, either we'll dig one of the demoted ones or I'll step
up for it. This will only happen if I get support from the actual
trans-pt team. If it's inactive, then I'll have to give face and rebuild
a new one and keep people motivated.

I've contacted already some people in local organizations that promote
FOSS, and might launch a small "call to arms" soon amongst Portuguese
people in order to join the efforts for a localized team in Portugal.
Eventually we'll sort the Ambassadors from there (if we don't have any
active).

I think that having a true pt_pt localized community will only help
Fedora. Half way solutions are a reducer factor which only harms
credibility. But it's my opinion.

Anyway I'll wait and see what happens and who answers to my alerts, from
there I'll see the best action to take, but yes, I will place efforts on
this localized Fedora issue for pt_pt.




On Sat, 2010-05-01 at 10:34 -0600, Neville A. Cross wrote:
> 2010/5/1 Nelson Marques <07721@ipam.pt>:
> > On Sat, 2010-05-01 at 17:10 +0200, Mario Torre wrote:
> >> Correct,
> >>
> >> I think this is Brasilian Portugues, isn't it?
> >
> > Objective isn't flaming. I don't know if it is pt_BR or anything else,
> > but I know Portuguese it isn't. Explanation goes to Mario in Portuguese
> > for Mario only, because I am not sure if I can articulate this properly
> > in English:
> >
> > Eu queria só deixar uma coisa clara, nao é por estar em pt_BR, mas há
> > frases que simplesmente fazem qualquer sentido, por exemplo:
> >
> > "Reporte bugs e cobre melhorias"
> >
> > A parte do "reporte bugs", isso passa, como uma grande parte do texto, o
> > leitor certamente percebe a mensagem, o problema vem logo a seguir
> > "cobre melhorias". Cobre como substantivo é um metal (Cu), e enquanto
> > forma verbal do verbo "cobrar", que significa taxar, não faz qualquer
> > sentido... E deixa o leitor sem qualquer noção do que está para ali
> > escrito, acabando por destruir o contexto da frase inteira.
> >
> <snip>
>
> I have to agree with Nelson, the page it does not flows smooth when
> you are reading it. I am not very good with Portuguese in general,
> less with differences across the Atlantic. The wiki page is broken
> enough for me to notice. Looks like a machine translation without a
> human review.
>
> If this is going to fire a flame war, then have it pt_pt and pt_br. I
> may said that having some tasks that make PT community identify and
> join will be good. This will allow PT users to see that the can engage
> and localize Fedora as much as they like. They can take ownership.
> What I may suggest will be important is to agree with the wiki masters
> how to integrate the new pages, so nothing is broken in the process
> and the pages are easily to find. The most obvious suggestion will be
> to create a category and use it extensively.
>
> Best regards
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Neville
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
> Linux User # 473217
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Check: http://www.clickmanagua.com
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

--
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Old 05-01-2010, 06:51 PM
"Neville A. Cross"
 
Default Fedora Project em Português

2010/5/1 Nelson Marques <07721@ipam.pt>:
<snip>
>
> I've had feedback of at least one Portuguese Ambassador that was demoted
> and I did failed to get some replies from his mentor, I really don't
> like how Portuguese Ambassadors are assigned with non-EMEA mentors. This
> is a failure in my personal opinion. To be an Ambassador it's required
> communication skills, and this kinda sorts out the "language" barrier
> from any native to english (in my opinion).
>
<snip>

Demoted? or not approved? This may be an issue that has to be
discussed with famsco. You may bring this up at next famsco
meeting[0]. I have seen in the past some people looking for mentorship
outside their region. A person in Mexico went to a mentor in NA
instead of looking for someone in LATAM. If I can help with something
regarding mentorship, please let me know.

[0] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAmSCo_meetings

--
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https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
Linux User # 473217

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Old 05-01-2010, 07:18 PM
Nelson Marques
 
Default Fedora Project em Português

Neville,

Well, that's it, not accepted, my bad. Don't worry about it, let it go,
I've spoken with the person who reported that, and the reason for him
not to be accepted was because he didn't do enough. I would like to know
how Ambassadors quantify such things... because if they are aware of the
Portuguese reality regarding Fedora... There is a lot to be done and it
starts with creating a user-base and a "banner" or point of reunion
between users. That's hard for anyone jumping in... I know it because
I've seen enough projects appear and disappear shortly after.

But don't worry about it. I'm already in the translation group for
trans-pt, so that's a starting point and the rest will come later on if
we can mobilize more people to the cause.

nelson.



On Sat, 2010-05-01 at 12:51 -0600, Neville A. Cross wrote:
> 2010/5/1 Nelson Marques <07721@ipam.pt>:
> <snip>
> >
> > I've had feedback of at least one Portuguese Ambassador that was demoted
> > and I did failed to get some replies from his mentor, I really don't
> > like how Portuguese Ambassadors are assigned with non-EMEA mentors. This
> > is a failure in my personal opinion. To be an Ambassador it's required
> > communication skills, and this kinda sorts out the "language" barrier
> > from any native to english (in my opinion).
> >
> <snip>
>
> Demoted? or not approved? This may be an issue that has to be
> discussed with famsco. You may bring this up at next famsco
> meeting[0]. I have seen in the past some people looking for mentorship
> outside their region. A person in Mexico went to a mentor in NA
> instead of looking for someone in LATAM. If I can help with something
> regarding mentorship, please let me know.
>
> [0] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAmSCo_meetings
>
> --
> Neville
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
> Linux User # 473217
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Check: http://www.clickmanagua.com
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

--
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Old 05-02-2010, 10:46 AM
Mario Torre
 
Default Fedora Project em Português

Il giorno sab, 01/05/2010 alle 16.48 +0100, Nelson Marques ha scritto:
> On Sat, 2010-05-01 at 17:10 +0200, Mario Torre wrote:
> > Correct,
> >
> > I think this is Brasilian Portugues, isn't it?
>
> Objective isn't flaming. I don't know if it is pt_BR or anything else,
> but I know Portuguese it isn't. Explanation goes to Mario in Portuguese
> for Mario only, because I am not sure if I can articulate this properly
> in English:

Hi Nelson!

I didn't mean to start a flame either, I just wanted to point out the
issue.

Naturally, I think that having a strong community around fedora is a
great thing, and this can only be achieved, in my opinion, if the local
communities are strong (you know how they say, a chain is only as strong
etc.. etc..).

I think that having a pt_PT page is the best thing to do to get this
result, and I think that you are doing a great job in trying to bring
the community at a new level, and not only marketing wise, and not just
the Portugues one either, if you do the same amount of "noise" in the
local community, I'm sure in a couple of years Fedora is going to "sell"
more than Windows

But jokes aside, my "problem" with your request was exactly this, how
easily a simple and legitimate request like this could lead to
misunderstanding. As you said, somebody has taken "care" to write this
page. Maybe it was just some guy that used google translator, and surely
things have to be fixed there anyway (I mean, it's true that the page
language is a bit broken, no matter if you are Brasilian or Portugues),
still, despite all, somebody started it.

> Example: Citroen Picasso in Brazil ?
> Chevy Nova in Spain ?
> Mazda MR2 in France ?

Yeah, I know about that, and I know all the jokes my Brasilian friends
do. about those brands..

> People need to be careful and it's nicer to have a disclaimer stating:
> we dont offer Portuguese (european) because we don't have pt_PT
> translators, so the information is available in: en_EN, pt_BR, ES.

I agree completely.

> They shouldn't bleed because:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt says the following:
>
> "Visite o site do Projecto Fedora Portugal para aprender mais sobre o
> Fedora ou fazer download dele. O wiki do Projecto Fedora Portugal" which
> translates into something like:

You know, this doesn't mean that the page wasn't mean for Brasilian
people. It may just be that the Portugues page is good enough to serve
both.

What I mean is that it could be that no separation was intended at all,
we'll probably never know this.

> I think the message on the webpage is pretty clear. Why would Brazilians
> get bleeding hearts if the page for Portuguese (European) is in correct
> Portuguese (European) ?

Actually, if you follow the link, for me it redirect to the main Fedora
page, so something else is borked there...

Anyway, as I said before, I really didn't mean to either stop you from
doing anything or starting a flame, I just wanted to suggest another way
to approach the problem.

Cheers,
Mario
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Old 05-02-2010, 08:10 PM
Paul Frields
 
Default Fedora Project em Português

2010/5/1 Nelson Marques <07721@ipam.pt>:
>
> people,
>
> with all respect, I'm bleeding from my eyes after seeing this:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt
>
> Do I have permission to edit this page and convert this to Standard
> Portuguese (pt_PT)?

Nelson, the right way to approach this is by working in cooperation
with the other contributors who put the page together. Saying things
like "I'm bleeding from my eyes after seeing this" could be insulting
to the people who put their volunteer time into the page. It's
fantastic that you want to improve things around the project, and I
applaud you for being willing to help. I would ask that you remember
that there are many volunteers everywhere in the project giving freely
of their time, and you should strive to build a positive relationship
with them as you work.

I did find one minor issue on the page as a non-pt speaker, which was
that it's not directing to our official sites for download and
information. Nelson, I left information on the Talk page[1] that
perhaps you could work with the other contributors to improve the
page.

Paul

* * *
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Pt
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Old 05-03-2010, 02:37 PM
Nelson Marques
 
Default Fedora Project em Português

On Sun, 2010-05-02 at 16:10 -0400, Paul Frields wrote:
> 2010/5/1 Nelson Marques <07721@ipam.pt>:
> >
> > people,
> >
> > with all respect, I'm bleeding from my eyes after seeing this:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Pt
> >
> > Do I have permission to edit this page and convert this to Standard
> > Portuguese (pt_PT)?
>
> Nelson, the right way to approach this is by working in cooperation
> with the other contributors who put the page together. Saying things
> like "I'm bleeding from my eyes after seeing this" could be insulting
> to the people who put their volunteer time into the page.

I don't believe that this is the case. Someone on this thread also said
that if we pointed pt_PT to Brazilian community it would also make their
hearts bleed. I think we understand the meaning of this and we don't
take it into a reductive factor between people working on it.


> It's
> fantastic that you want to improve things around the project, and I
> applaud you for being willing to help. I would ask that you remember
> that there are many volunteers everywhere in the project giving freely
> of their time, and you should strive to build a positive relationship
> with them as you work.

I have contacted the pt_PT translation team which informed me they were
a very tiny team with 3 contributors. I'm localized very close to their
leader and we're planning to do a mini-FAD to get to know each other and
make a self assessment of the situation.

He has proposed that I could establish a link with the Marketing team
and also agree's with my point of view, it's important to get all our
Project main information available ASAP in pt_PT. He checked that they
are willing to help.

We will be planning a FAD soon in the north of Portugal, in which we
plan to extend it to every Portuguese who wants to get in touch with
Fedora.


>
> I did find one minor issue on the page as a non-pt speaker, which was
> that it's not directing to our official sites for download and
> information. Nelson, I left information on the Talk page[1] that
> perhaps you could work with the other contributors to improve the
> page.

I will you an example: "Talk about bugs and tax improvements". Users are
taxing Fedora on improvements? This sounds weird. And it's just one
example from the rest. Unlike in english where you have: color and
colour, which are pretty much the same thing, differences between
Portuguese pt_PT and pt_BR are not exactly in the same line as
color/colour.


Paul, I have the support from the trans_pt Team on this. We would like
to get projectofedora.org and establish there a wiki localized for
Portuguese pt_PT with all the information available in pt_PT. Mainly the
important information. They back me up on this move, we are few, but
will from where we will be able to get more contributors for pt_PT and
start working on our local user base.

I recon there might be a problem with Ambassadorial issues, as I am not
sure that we have active Ambassadors here, and probably someone will
enforce us to have Ambassadors.

If this is the case and we need Ambassadors, to whom should we recommend
that Portuguese Ambassadors get mentors from the EMEA region and not
Brazilian? Most likely spanish mentors/tutors, as their culture and
audience is very close to ours.

Paul, I need help to establish some bridges here. I understand this
might not be the best time for it due to being close to a release, but
are starting to mobilize.


nelson

>
> Paul
>
> * * *
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Pt

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