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Old 12-31-2007, 11:22 PM
"Jon Stanley"
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

I was triaging old bugs in the FC6 kernel, and got this back form a
reporter. While I agree that a lack of response can be frustrating
to a reporter, I'm not entirely sure what (if anything) we can do
about it.- I'm sending this to marketing-list since it seems to be a
problem for us rather than QA - though probably both, and I'm sure
alot of us are on both.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <bugzilla@redhat.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2007 5:48 PM
Subject: [Bug 204883] Boot fails in insmod after upgrade from fc5
(x86) to fc6t2 (x86_64)
To: jonstanley@gmail.com


Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional
comments should be made in the comments box of this bug report.

Summary: Boot fails in insmod after upgrade from fc5 (x86) to fc6t2 (x86_64)


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=204883


grgoffe@yahoo.com changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Status|NEEDINFO |NEW
Flag|needinfo?(grgoffe@yahoo.com)|




------- Additional Comments From grgoffe@yahoo.com 2007-12-31 18:48 EST -------
Jon,

Thanks for your input.

I've pretty much given up with my efforts to further the Fedora cause. Here are
my reasons:

1) I opened this case OVER a year ago. NO responses til now. Not exactly what I
would call a timely response I'm sure you'll agree.

2) I have joined several of the fedora lists (fedora-dev comes to mind off the
top of my head. I have posted to the list several times but have NOT received
any responses except from Rahul.

I'm NOT a developer but I HAVE a lot of experience working with systems (> 40
years) of all kinds. I will NEVER tell anyone that I know it all because I just
don't. I do expect to be listened to when I request info or make a suggestion.
EVEN if it's just to tell me to go to hell. This is not unreasonable, I do
listen AND reply to other people when they address me. I just expect the same
treatment.

Regards,

George...



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Old 12-31-2007, 11:41 PM
William Cattey
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

I too have been disheartened to hear nothing for months and often
more than a year for problems I have reported.


It is impossible to give every submitted a bug detailed and rigorous
attention. There are just too many bugs and not enough people.


It seems to me, however, that if those in the know could manage to
triage each incoming bug within a few days, and answer the submitter
doing four simple things, the people submitting the bugs would feel
more strongly motivated to stay involved and to grow into people who
could help out in future. What four things:


1. Acknowledge the submission.
2. Identify if it is an already known bug, and if so, connect the
new bug to the known bug.
3. If it can be done with a few minutes work, provide the submitter
with something to do to get them moving forward on isolating and
fixing the bug.
4. If possible, give a sense of when to expect further help: If the
bug is difficult to deal with, and in a low importance subsystem, say
so. If it is easy to fix, give the submitter help in trying to
submit a fix.


Leaving people hanging for months and years has consequences. For
example: I got bit in August by Red Hat bugzilla bug 240326. In
DECEMBER that bug was flagged as a duplicate of Red Hat bug 222327
detected by Red Hat internally and opened in January. The lack of
timely triage meant that nobody realized this EASY bug to fix was
actually affecting real customers. Although this bug is Red Hat, not
Fedora, the principle is the same.


If you at least respond, and respond quickly, you motivate people to
do more work and join the ranks of those helping out. If you allow a
one-year backlog to come into existence, you look bad, you de-
motivate potential good new people, and you cheat yourself out of
useful information and forward progress on the code base.


Bottom line: Every bug deserves 15 minutes of triage. The value
produced is measurable and significant.


-Bill

----

William Cattey
Linux Platform Coordinator
MIT Information Services & Technology

N42-040M, 617-253-0140, wdc@mit.edu
http://web.mit.edu/wdc/www/


On Dec 31, 2007, at 7:22 PM, Jon Stanley wrote:


I was triaging old bugs in the FC6 kernel, and got this back form a
reporter. While I agree that a lack of response can be frustrating
to a reporter, I'm not entirely sure what (if anything) we can do
about it.- I'm sending this to marketing-list since it seems to be a
problem for us rather than QA - though probably both, and I'm sure
alot of us are on both.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <bugzilla@redhat.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2007 5:48 PM
Subject: [Bug 204883] Boot fails in insmod after upgrade from fc5
(x86) to fc6t2 (x86_64)
To: jonstanley@gmail.com


Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional
comments should be made in the comments box of this bug report.

Summary: Boot fails in insmod after upgrade from fc5 (x86) to fc6t2
(x86_64)



https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=204883


grgoffe@yahoo.com changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Status|NEEDINFO |NEW
Flag|needinfo?(grgoffe@yahoo.com)|




------- Additional Comments From grgoffe@yahoo.com 2007-12-31
18:48 EST -------

Jon,

Thanks for your input.

I've pretty much given up with my efforts to further the Fedora
cause. Here are

my reasons:

1) I opened this case OVER a year ago. NO responses til now. Not
exactly what I

would call a timely response I'm sure you'll agree.

2) I have joined several of the fedora lists (fedora-dev comes to
mind off the
top of my head. I have posted to the list several times but have
NOT received

any responses except from Rahul.

I'm NOT a developer but I HAVE a lot of experience working with
systems (> 40
years) of all kinds. I will NEVER tell anyone that I know it all
because I just
don't. I do expect to be listened to when I request info or make a
suggestion.
EVEN if it's just to tell me to go to hell. This is not
unreasonable, I do
listen AND reply to other people when they address me. I just
expect the same

treatment.

Regards,

George...



--
Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.



--
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Fedora Ambassador
jstanley@fedoraproject.org

--
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Old 12-31-2007, 11:50 PM
Marc Wiriadisastra
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Mon, 2007-12-31 at 19:41 -0500, William Cattey wrote:
> I too have been disheartened to hear nothing for months and often
> more than a year for problems I have reported.
>
> It is impossible to give every submitted a bug detailed and rigorous
> attention. There are just too many bugs and not enough people.
>
> It seems to me, however, that if those in the know could manage to
> triage each incoming bug within a few days, and answer the submitter
> doing four simple things, the people submitting the bugs would feel
> more strongly motivated to stay involved and to grow into people who
> could help out in future. What four things:
>
> 1. Acknowledge the submission.
> 2. Identify if it is an already known bug, and if so, connect the
> new bug to the known bug.
> 3. If it can be done with a few minutes work, provide the submitter
> with something to do to get them moving forward on isolating and
> fixing the bug.
> 4. If possible, give a sense of when to expect further help: If the
> bug is difficult to deal with, and in a low importance subsystem, say
> so. If it is easy to fix, give the submitter help in trying to
> submit a fix.
>
> Leaving people hanging for months and years has consequences. For
> example: I got bit in August by Red Hat bugzilla bug 240326. In
> DECEMBER that bug was flagged as a duplicate of Red Hat bug 222327
> detected by Red Hat internally and opened in January. The lack of
> timely triage meant that nobody realized this EASY bug to fix was
> actually affecting real customers. Although this bug is Red Hat, not
> Fedora, the principle is the same.
>
> If you at least respond, and respond quickly, you motivate people to
> do more work and join the ranks of those helping out. If you allow a
> one-year backlog to come into existence, you look bad, you de-
> motivate potential good new people, and you cheat yourself out of
> useful information and forward progress on the code base.
>
> Bottom line: Every bug deserves 15 minutes of triage. The value
> produced is measurable and significant.
>
> -Bill
>
> ----
>
> William Cattey
> Linux Platform Coordinator
> MIT Information Services & Technology
>
> N42-040M, 617-253-0140, wdc@mit.edu
> http://web.mit.edu/wdc/www/
>
>
> On Dec 31, 2007, at 7:22 PM, Jon Stanley wrote:
>
> > I was triaging old bugs in the FC6 kernel, and got this back form a
> > reporter. While I agree that a lack of response can be frustrating
> > to a reporter, I'm not entirely sure what (if anything) we can do
> > about it.- I'm sending this to marketing-list since it seems to be a
> > problem for us rather than QA - though probably both, and I'm sure
> > alot of us are on both.
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: <bugzilla@redhat.com>
> > Date: Dec 31, 2007 5:48 PM
> > Subject: [Bug 204883] Boot fails in insmod after upgrade from fc5
> > (x86) to fc6t2 (x86_64)
> > To: jonstanley@gmail.com
> >
> >
> > Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional
> > comments should be made in the comments box of this bug report.
> >
> > Summary: Boot fails in insmod after upgrade from fc5 (x86) to fc6t2
> > (x86_64)
> >
> >
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=204883
> >
> >
> > grgoffe@yahoo.com changed:
> >
> > What |Removed |Added
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------
> > Status|NEEDINFO |NEW
> > Flag|needinfo?(grgoffe@yahoo.com)|
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------- Additional Comments From grgoffe@yahoo.com 2007-12-31
> > 18:48 EST -------
> > Jon,
> >
> > Thanks for your input.
> >
> > I've pretty much given up with my efforts to further the Fedora
> > cause. Here are
> > my reasons:
> >
> > 1) I opened this case OVER a year ago. NO responses til now. Not
> > exactly what I
> > would call a timely response I'm sure you'll agree.
> >
> > 2) I have joined several of the fedora lists (fedora-dev comes to
> > mind off the
> > top of my head. I have posted to the list several times but have
> > NOT received
> > any responses except from Rahul.
> >
> > I'm NOT a developer but I HAVE a lot of experience working with
> > systems (> 40
> > years) of all kinds. I will NEVER tell anyone that I know it all
> > because I just
> > don't. I do expect to be listened to when I request info or make a
> > suggestion.
> > EVEN if it's just to tell me to go to hell. This is not
> > unreasonable, I do
> > listen AND reply to other people when they address me. I just
> > expect the same
> > treatment.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > George...
> >
> >
> >
> > -

Yep I've seen that a lot. Dev's are busy and generally can't respond
I'm not to sure if this does not occur in other projects but I know when
I post a bug to wine I get a response in close to 24-48 hours even if it
is just an acknowledgment of the bug.

Me personally I've always had bugs responded to so I haven't personally
experienced the problem.

I do know of one situation but that was relating to development of the
bash in F9 where we/fedoraforum posted a bug report to help BASH for the
init process and we haven't heard back as of yet and that was a few
months ago. While thats not really an issue most of the users in that
were very eager to help bug test yet there hasn't been feedback.

Cheers,


Marc

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Old 01-01-2008, 12:14 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 19:41:47 -0500
William Cattey <wdc@MIT.EDU> wrote:

> It seems to me, however, that if those in the know could manage to
> triage each incoming bug within a few days, and answer the submitter
> doing four simple things, the people submitting the bugs would feel
> more strongly motivated to stay involved and to grow into people who
> could help out in future. What four things:

We have people trying to organize bug days and triage events.

--
Jesse Keating RHCE (jkeating.livejournal.com)
Fedora Project (fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating)
GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)
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Old 01-01-2008, 12:33 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

William Cattey wrote:


Bottom line: Every bug deserves 15 minutes of triage. The value
produced is measurable and significant.


I am pretty sure everybody will agree with that. However we don't really
have many triagers and any help on this would be most welcome.


Rahul

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Old 01-01-2008, 06:49 PM
"Michael Stahnke"
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Jan 1, 2008 7:33 AM, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> William Cattey wrote:
> >
> > Bottom line: Every bug deserves 15 minutes of triage. The value
> > produced is measurable and significant.
>
> I am pretty sure everybody will agree with that. However we don't really
> have many triagers and any help on this would be most welcome.
>
> Rahul
>
>
> --
> Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
> Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>

To me, a lot of the reason there are not more people tracking down
bugs like this is that any/most packages that were part of core, can't
be fixed by community members. Some of the bugs are 5 minute fixes
that anyone could do. Rather than just fix them, we have to fill out
more items about each bug and pray someone from Red Hat deems it
worthy enough to fix. I have had several bugs opened and then years
later closed when FCx or RHELx was no longer supported and told to
refile them if they still exist.

That leaves a bad taste in my mouth and is really against most of the
the open source models I am aware of. If I can fix it, or at least
provide a patch to fix it, why should it take year(s) for evaluation?

I normally find that bugs on former extras packages were taken care of
much faster. Most often now, I will just create my own
package/patches and apply on my systems rather than try to file bug
against any core package. It gets results. For example the last bug
I filed (that I recall anyway)
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=236697 was put in April.
I haven't heard one single thing back on it. This is proof to me that
either the team maintaining core packages is too small, or there are
lots of people at RH who don't care about bug reports.

stahnma

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Old 01-01-2008, 06:50 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

Michael Stahnke wrote:

To me, a lot of the reason there are not more people tracking down
bugs like this is that any/most packages that were part of core, can't
be fixed by community members.


Triaging bugs usually doesn't require any commit access. I have triaged
hundreds of bugs before and most of them was about asking for more
information, reassigning bugs so that it reaches the proper maintainers,
closing duplicates or already fixed bugs and so on but it is possible
that ACL's are a hindrance and I have been always supportive of removing
them to the maximum extend possible.


You might be interested in
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating/PackageACLOpening.


This is proof to me that

either the team maintaining core packages is too small, or there are
lots of people at RH who don't care about bug reports.


It is mostly a problem of resources and there are few ways you can
tackle this currently including direct mails, requesting
co-maintainership of the package in question or initiating the AWOL/MIA
process.


Rahul

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Old 01-01-2008, 08:20 PM
inode0
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Jan 1, 2008 7:33 AM, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> William Cattey wrote:
> >
> > Bottom line: Every bug deserves 15 minutes of triage. The value
> > produced is measurable and significant.
>
> I am pretty sure everybody will agree with that. However we don't really
> have many triagers and any help on this would be most welcome.

What is the magnitude of the problem? While I understand one more
triager would be welcome would one more triager make any difference?
Would 10 more make a difference? How many would it take to make a real
difference?

John

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Old 01-01-2008, 08:43 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

inode0 wrote:

On Jan 1, 2008 7:33 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

William Cattey wrote:

Bottom line: Every bug deserves 15 minutes of triage. The value
produced is measurable and significant.

I am pretty sure everybody will agree with that. However we don't really
have many triagers and any help on this would be most welcome.


What is the magnitude of the problem?


It is a pretty huge problem. To understand it a bit more, some stats.

There is a total of 13557 bugs (excluding documentation, directory
server and Fedora EPEL repository)


Against Fedora 7, 8 and rawhide alone, 9708 bugs are open. Quite a
number of them are package review requests rather than bugs but still
the number of open bugs that are likely still valid at any given point
has been hovering around 8000. We have around 5000+ source packages
(only source packages are listed in bugzilla) and majority of them are
filed against a few key packages.


While I understand one more

triager would be welcome would one more triager make any difference?


Certainly but you probably need to target specific things. The large
majority of bugs are usually filed against core components like the
kernel, xorg or default applications like Openoffice.org, Firefox,
Evolution etc. Typical 80/20 rule.


A new triager could focus on say Xorg bug reports and make a pretty big
difference and you don't need any programming skills to do it. If you
can coordinate this with the relevant package maintainers, that would be
even better. Christopher Brown has been doing it for the kernel with
pretty good results.


https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-kernel-list/2007-December/msg00029.html

Red Hat desktop team has a dedicated bug triager, Matej Cepl and you
might want to contact him before you touch on any of the desktop
components.



Would 10 more make a difference? How many would it take to make a real
difference?


I am just making a guess here but a group of about 3 or 4 people working
together as a team on organizing bug days etc can certainly make a
immediate difference to the entire bug list. If you are interested, refer


http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers

Join #fedora-qa and ping me (nick:mether) or Will Woods (nick:wwods)
and we can help you get you started. Otherwise just ask in the channel.


Rahul

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Old 01-02-2008, 02:23 PM
Greg DeKoenigsberg
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007, Jon Stanley wrote:


I was triaging old bugs in the FC6 kernel, and got this back form a
reporter. While I agree that a lack of response can be frustrating
to a reporter, I'm not entirely sure what (if anything) we can do
about it.- I'm sending this to marketing-list since it seems to be a
problem for us rather than QA - though probably both, and I'm sure
alot of us are on both.


Handling this exact kind of problem is why bug triagers are worth their
weight in gold.


Because here's the thing: people don't expect all of their bugs to be
magically fixed. (Well, some do, but it doesn't make good business sense
or good community sense to cater to unreasonable people.)


What they *do* expect is for someone to say, "gee, thanks for posting this
bug, we'll set the priority accordingly and maybe poke a developer." And
we fail pretty miserably at that.


Cross-posting to the Fedora advisory board list. Our inability to create
and nurture a bug triage community continues to be painful, and our
current QA resources within Red Hat continue to be (necessarily)
technically focused rather than community focused. This is a problem we
need to solve.


--g

--
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"

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