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Old 01-03-2008, 07:47 PM
"Stephen John Smoogen"
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Jan 3, 2008 8:35 AM, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> Jason L Tibbitts III wrote:
> >>>>>> "RS" == Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> writes:
> >
> > RS> The fact that bugz.fp.o is separate instead of being part of
> > RS> bugzilla to me, indicates that we have a problem.
> >
> > I'm having trouble understanding how a quick interface to a few set
> > queries is a problem. Surely it's a good thing that bugzilla lets us
> > do this.
>
> Enhancements like this should be part of bugzilla and not a separate
> interface. http://bugzilla.redhat.com/rpm can be modified to do this.
> The reason why we don't it is because pretty much nobody in Fedora has
> access to that bugzilla instance to make improvements that benefit Fedora.
>

Uhm only if the changes don't break the accounting and other legal
processes that might be in Bugzilla because of SOX legal requirements
and such. You cant just hack around with bugzilla.redhat.com as it is
part of the company that makes money to pay for the rest of the toys.


> Rahul
>
>
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>



--
Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator
How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice"

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Old 01-03-2008, 07:58 PM
John Poelstra
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

Stephen John Smoogen said the following on 01/03/2008 12:47 PM Pacific Time:

On Jan 3, 2008 8:35 AM, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

Jason L Tibbitts III wrote:

"RS" == Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> writes:

RS> The fact that bugz.fp.o is separate instead of being part of
RS> bugzilla to me, indicates that we have a problem.

I'm having trouble understanding how a quick interface to a few set
queries is a problem. Surely it's a good thing that bugzilla lets us
do this.

Enhancements like this should be part of bugzilla and not a separate
interface. http://bugzilla.redhat.com/rpm can be modified to do this.
The reason why we don't it is because pretty much nobody in Fedora has
access to that bugzilla instance to make improvements that benefit Fedora.



Uhm only if the changes don't break the accounting and other legal
processes that might be in Bugzilla because of SOX legal requirements
and such. You cant just hack around with bugzilla.redhat.com as it is
part of the company that makes money to pay for the rest of the toys.




SOX and Bugzilla??? There are accounting and legal processes in bugzilla?

Please send a link to the SOX reg where this is outlined.

Maybe I should go back to being a CPA

John

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Old 01-03-2008, 08:04 PM
"Stephen John Smoogen"
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Jan 3, 2008 1:58 PM, John Poelstra <poelstra@redhat.com> wrote:
> Stephen John Smoogen said the following on 01/03/2008 12:47 PM Pacific Time:
> > On Jan 3, 2008 8:35 AM, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> >> Jason L Tibbitts III wrote:
> >>>>>>>> "RS" == Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> writes:
> >>> RS> The fact that bugz.fp.o is separate instead of being part of
> >>> RS> bugzilla to me, indicates that we have a problem.
> >>>
> >>> I'm having trouble understanding how a quick interface to a few set
> >>> queries is a problem. Surely it's a good thing that bugzilla lets us
> >>> do this.
> >> Enhancements like this should be part of bugzilla and not a separate
> >> interface. http://bugzilla.redhat.com/rpm can be modified to do this.
> >> The reason why we don't it is because pretty much nobody in Fedora has
> >> access to that bugzilla instance to make improvements that benefit Fedora.
> >>
> >
> > Uhm only if the changes don't break the accounting and other legal
> > processes that might be in Bugzilla because of SOX legal requirements
> > and such. You cant just hack around with bugzilla.redhat.com as it is
> > part of the company that makes money to pay for the rest of the toys.
> >
> >
>
> SOX and Bugzilla??? There are accounting and legal processes in bugzilla?
>
> Please send a link to the SOX reg where this is outlined.
>
> Maybe I should go back to being a CPA
>

I do not know if there are not in Bugzilla.. sorry about not saying
'maybe'. I do remember that when SOX was getting rolled out, there had
to be a lot of changes into the entire Red Hat build system to meet
various tracking changes through the life of it etc. I thought someone
mentioned that covered bugzilla too.. but hey I am getting my info via
virtual beers that come due the next time I am in NC.



--
Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator
How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice"

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Old 01-03-2008, 10:43 PM
R P Herrold
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:

On Jan 3, 2008 1:58 PM, John Poelstra <poelstra@redhat.com> wrote:



SOX and Bugzilla??? There are accounting and legal processes in bugzilla?
Please send a link to the SOX reg where this is outlined.
Maybe I should go back to being a CPA



I do not know if there are not in Bugzilla.. sorry about not saying
'maybe'. I do remember that when SOX was getting rolled out, there had
to be a lot of changes into the entire Red Hat build system to meet
various tracking changes through the life of it etc.


for those coming in late, a 'quick' overview of wtf SOX is:
http://www.mcgladrey.com/Resource_Center/Audit/Articles/ImplementingSOX_AnIntroduction.html

from tfa:
a process ... under the supervision of the principal executive
..., and effected by ... management, to provide reasonable
assurance regarding the reliability of financial reporting ...


for John Poelstra:
As you know SOX is notoriously vague as to explicit
requirements, and a cottage sub-industry in the accounting
profession has grown up, 'selling indulgences' for SOX.


connecting the dots:
The recently retired CEO of RHT commented publicly from time
to time on RHEL ship dates; the reason his comment was sought
was in part so that Wall St types could handicap the financial
prospects of the company; RHEL ship processes are partially
affected by what is in trackers, of which one is the external
bugzilla; that falls to the bottom line, and ends up in
'financial reporting' and the quarterly call which is
preceded by the filings needing the SOX level assurances.


-- Russ herrold

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Old 01-04-2008, 01:39 AM
Karsten Wade
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Wed, 2008-01-02 at 22:11 -0500, Jon Stanley wrote:

> Minor logistical problem - I'm from NYC and don't have a driver's
> license. A cab from the airport to the hotel is cool, but what about
> transportation from the hotel to RH? Is there a shuttle or something?

We'll likely carpool; I know some folks are looking at renting a van or
two, and I'll get a big(ger) car for the same purpose. I'll send you my
cell # separately; glad to get you at the airport, direct you to where
we are Friday night, or make sure you get in our carpool.

- Karsten
--
Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr.
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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Old 01-04-2008, 01:52 AM
seth vidal
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 18:39 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-01-02 at 22:11 -0500, Jon Stanley wrote:
>
> > Minor logistical problem - I'm from NYC and don't have a driver's
> > license. A cab from the airport to the hotel is cool, but what about
> > transportation from the hotel to RH? Is there a shuttle or something?
>
> We'll likely carpool; I know some folks are looking at renting a van or
> two, and I'll get a big(ger) car for the same purpose. I'll send you my
> cell # separately; glad to get you at the airport, direct you to where
> we are Friday night, or make sure you get in our carpool.

Speaking of cars - how is parking going to be arranged for friday?

-sv


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Old 01-04-2008, 11:51 AM
John Poelstra
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

Luke Macken said the following on 01/02/2008 06:25 PM Pacific Time:

On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 01:24:49PM -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote:

On Jan 2, 2008 1:14 PM, John Poelstra <poelstra@redhat.com> wrote:

Unlike others that have posted here, I am less optimistic that we can
viably review and address all 13,000+ open bugs. We need to do
something drastic to clear the deck and start a process that insures
that we don't end up in this hole again. I think this huge backlog is
one of the biggest psychological de-motivators we have!

I think you are right about clearing the deck as part of a re-launch
for a triaging inititive.

I also think that now that we have bodhi and the bugs interfaces to
compliment what we have in bugzilla we have more to work with in terms
of workflow flexibility for different groups of people
(users,developers,triagers).

Is there a way to possibly group bugs by SIG? So we can have specific
triagers associated with SIGs. triagers as a group are a team, but
then they also act as a liaison to each SIG which controls the
packaging and development of related of packages. That way SIGs might
advertise their triager role to new contributors as a starting point,
but make a commitment to mentoring those people so that in 6 months
those people move on to handling more advanced roles in the SIG such
as package maintainer, and new triagers are found for the entry level
position.


For those who haven't realized it yet: Fedora development does not scale.
This won't change until we move away from our 1-to-1/1-to-many package
maintainership model. IMO, we need groups of people maintaining groups of
packages. SIGs are a nice idea in theory, but have yet to be fully wielded.

A great example of this concept in action can be found within the gentoo
community[0]


AFAIK, we have a few groups of maintainers that handle bugs, ie:
{anaconda,kernel,gecko}-maint, but I'm unaware of any policy/procedures
behind them. Having these groups per-SIG would definitely help get more eyes
on our bugs, especially if we can allow for these sub-communities to thrive.

It also sounds like Will's QA Beats[1] have the same general idea behind it.
Instead of encapsulating people at the bugzilla/QA level, why not form these
groups at the distro-level, to allow for team-based: packaging, bug triaging,
QA, docs, etc.. ?

Thoughts?



This seems like a good idea. How successful have the "QA Beats" been?

john

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Old 01-04-2008, 12:08 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Wed, 2008-01-02 at 15:54 -0600, Jon Stanley wrote:
> On Jan 2, 2008 2:25 PM, Elliot Lee <sopwith@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > What we need is a leader. Someone who wants to step up and say "we will
> > > have Fedora bug days every Friday (or whatever) from this time to this
> > > time, and I will be in #fedora-qa doing it myself, and teaching everyone
> > > else who wants to learn."
>
> Joined fedora-advisory-board late (after this was cross-posted from
> fedora-marketing where I started the thread), so I'm not sure who
> originally wrote this, but this is what I'm volunteering myself to do.
> Fedora is not $DAYJOB for me, and I can't spend much time on it
> (depending on workload). In the evenings and on weekends however,
> sign me up! I'll teach anyone who wants to know what I know, and hope
> that others will do the same.

This is a leader's attitude. Way to go!

> > I hink this is the heart of the problem (not the washing hair, the
> > thankless work bit...) The only person I can recall who was ever a
> > Rock Star Bug Triager was Kjartan Maraas for GNOME, and I think he did
> > it out of dedication rather than sheer enjoyment, because he had the
> > talent to work on a lot of other stuff as well.
>
> Well, I'm not much of a developer (unless you count shell script-fu -
> then I'm a ninja), however I think that I've got what it takes to
> triage - an interest in doing it, time, and not really caring that
> it's a thankless job - most of what we do is, but it does have an
> impact.

The biggest impact of triage is that it gives the casual (or one-time)
contributor the feeling that their time was not wasted filing a bug to
begin with. Making sure that a bug is fixed in N timeslices is not
nearly as important as making sure that the filer knows they're not
being ignored. Every person who files a bug, gets completely ignored
for 6-12 months, and then gets fed up and goes away is a person who
carries that experience with them into their interactions with others.
Word of mouth is *powerful*.

> > . Fix incentives. Maybe it means point system for rewarding people,
> > maybe it means free FUDcon trips, maybe it means improved recognition,
> > maybe it means hiring someone.
>
> If it would help I was thinking of trying to make my way to FUDcon
> Raleigh to further this cause - I think it may be premature, though.
> I live in NYC, so airfare is cheap still.
>
> > . Figure out what part of triaging /is/ enjoyable, and articulate it
> > well in a call for contributors.
>
> Hmm, good question - the good feeling that you're making a difference? :P

People who can get by on just those good feelings are worth their weight
in gold! It would be nice to have something else in the hopper for
them, though. I like the idea of a points system that converts into
something tangible if desired, such as FUDCon travel allowance or other
goodies.

> > . Divide & conquer. Maybe you can't get five people working steadily
> > on bug triaging, but you might be able to get fifty Fedora
> > contributors triaging one bug per person per week. If you could write
> > a piece of infrastructure that decided which bugs needed triaging,
> > it'd be easy enough to have that infrastructure send an e-mail out
> > once a week to those fifty people ("Greg, Please triage bug #45678")
> > and track who was actually doing their part. You may want to wash your
> > hair on Fridays, but don't tell me you wouldn't be willing to triage
> > one bug a week...?
>
> I think we can use bugzilla here. All bugs begin life in the NEW
> state. Perhaps if we just set them to ASSIGNED after triaging, and
> alter the definition of that state, or maybe add a new state like
> UNCONFIRMED like mozilla.org has. Other suggestions welcome.

After reading Matej's draft, it seems to me that ASSIGNED means a solid
developer commitment. Committing developers without their knowledge is
not good, but maybe a "triage+" flag would be.

--
Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
Fedora Project: http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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Old 01-04-2008, 09:10 PM
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On 2008-01-03, 04:12 GMT, Jon Stanley wrote:
> I'm quite serious. I have no experience in this sort of thing,
> but we're all here to learn, right? My background is actually
> in architecture design and sysadmin type stuff. However, I'm
> more than willing to do this - I've been using Linux for over
> 10 years off and on, and professionally for the past 5 or so.

Welcom on board!!! Don't worry about your education, experience
is what matters -- I am a lawyer by education (I have not been in
practice for years) with unfinished PhD in criminology ;-).

> I've just need to clear with my boss taking part of next Friday
> off, and I'll be at FUDcon next weekend, and we can start
> hashing this out. I've already put a session on teh wiki about
> it, and figure that we can use the Sunday hackfest to actually
> start doing.

I am really sorry, I won't be at FUDcon at all -- I haven't had
enough time to even begin working on tickets etc. (I live in
Prague, Czech republic).

> I'm entirely willing to step up to this job - not the most
> glamarous one in the world, but certaintly high-impact. Note
> that I'll not be able to devote an FTE's worth of time to it,
> there is $DAYJOB still. However my free time (note I'm single
> and have no pets, etc ) can be devoted to this. Gives me
> a good cause to work on.

Once more -- welcome on board. If I may give you advice, pick
some packages which you are using daily and you are interested in
-- a) you need to be able to help users with workarounds,
diagnosing etc., so you need to understand it, b) you will spend
many hours with them, and it is not worthy to spend your time
with something you hate (thanks God, I am not bugmastering
iscsi-initiator-utils -- I would be bored to death).

Best,

Matěj

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Old 01-07-2008, 06:59 PM
"Luis Villa"
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Jan 2, 2008 4:37 PM, Jon Stanley <jonstanley@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 2, 2008 3:18 PM, seth vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
> > also worth noting for future reference - while bugzilla is a fine
> > interface (sort of) this is really easy for looking at bugs which
> > are /new/needinfo/etc:
> >
> > http://bugz.fedoraproject.org/[name-of-package]
>
> I had no idea. This isn't documented anywhere on the triage page, so
> I've got my own HTML form to do pretty much the same thing. I'll
> throw this up there.

May also want to look at (and take ideas from)
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/browse.cgi?product=pessulus

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